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  • The fire heap only exists in the minds of those that believe in God. For the rest of humanity, there is no fire heap.

    It is like enjoying or disliking a movie, if you don't see the movie, you don't enjoy or dislike.

    The fire heap is only there to control believers in God, it has little no effect on nonbelievers, despite what believers in God may think or believe.

    Non believers don't have to make their decisions based on a mythical place, and whether or not they're going to visit one day.
    Rod
    "To every unsung hero in the universe
    To those who roam the skies and those who roam the earth
    To all good men of reason may they never thirst " - from "Heaven Helpt the Devil" by G. Lightfoot

    Comment


    • I saw a thread entitled 'Please, please GO' - I mistakenly thought it referred to this thread!

      Iain Johnstone
      “None but those who have experienced them can conceive of the enticements of science” - Mary Shelley

      Comment


      • Wow! Giant clams that grow in the span of 40 days and 40 nights.... We could feed the world with those. Almost as amazing as a man that provides strong evidence of plate tectonics, while trying to refute it with poor analogies. BTW, placing markers on the ocean floor (which has been done) and watching them drift apart (which they do) also provides strong evidence of plate tectonics. The animation provided is quite accurate (although it was sped up to show, in seconds, a process that takes thousands of years).

        I also can't get the image of the Himalaya's , and the Andie's "when still soft" out of my head. What a hoot! Those idiot's who did Mt. Rushmore should have done it when it was still soft.

        This is a very entertaining thread!

        David

        Comment


        • dashed expectations

          I saw a thread entitled 'Please, please GO' - I mistakenly thought it referred to this thread!
          That's what I was hoping too Ian!
          Fred
          "fharris"+Chr$(64)+"evenlink"+Chr$(46)+"com"

          Comment


          • I saw a thread entitled 'Please, please GO' - I mistakenly thought it referred to this thread!
            At first I thought the "Spam Outbreak" thread might be related too!
            Rod
            "To every unsung hero in the universe
            To those who roam the skies and those who roam the earth
            To all good men of reason may they never thirst " - from "Heaven Helpt the Devil" by G. Lightfoot

            Comment


            • Suppabugs do evolve, as in evolution

              Originally posted by Iain Johnstone View Post
              I saw a thread entitled 'Please, please GO' - I mistakenly thought it referred to this thread!
              Originally posted by Iain Johnstone View Post

              Iain Johnstone
              Originally posted by Fred Harris View Post
              That's what I was hoping too Ian!


              Quote:
              I saw a thread entitled 'Please, please GO' - I mistakenly thought it referred to this thread!

              At first I thought the "Spam Outbreak" thread might be related too!

              You smart, guys! But remember the Chinese saying: “Be careful what you are wishing for!” Hehehehe!!!!

              Computer programmers represent Reason by overwhelming margins. Computer programmers are not Six-Pack-Joes by any stretch of imagination. I have a terrible time just opening a thread like this one. It doesn’t belong here. It belongs in those stall places of marginalized, marginal humans who believe they came into being some five thousand and a few score years ago. They sink they descended from spacecrafts constructed by the Man-Upstairs (trained as a skilful carpenter, especially penitentiary crosses, during the Roman Empire).

              I got one or two or just very few more humans who might belong in that extreme category of marginalized marginals:

              http://saliu.com/dirty-election.html
              http://saliu.com/survival.html

              Meanwhile, you have to understand that the 6-pax-joes follow missions laid out by the elders of their worshipping places. What would u doo? u might even have to swallow those suppa-bugs that made ineffective previously very effective medicines (like for TB or even flu…)

              You happier now?

              MP
              (Never has stood for Member of Parliament, but more like for a regular Joe who didn’t have health coverage for the most part of his virtual life).
              Last edited by Marzo Pollea; 13 Nov 2008, 03:23 PM. Reason: Them quotation marx!

              Comment



              • SEA FLOOR SPREADING AND THE MONEY TRAIL
                Does the sea floor actually move like a conveyor belt for miles over millions of years?

                Originally posted by David Kenny View Post
                Wow! Giant clams that grow in the span of 40 days and 40 nights....
                David, Welcome to the forum and thank you for your critique of the creation model. Your viewpoints (and doubts) are excellent for carrying the discussion further.

                The clams could have been growing for 50 years then afterwards wash to a higher elevation during the flood, just as boulders can relocate in flood waters as shown here. What is interesting is that these giant clam fossils, located high in Peru's Andes mountains, are all in the closed position which indicates they were buried rapidly without the opportunity for their adductor muscles to relax and open the shell as pictured below in non-catastrophic deaths.



                Originally posted by David Kenny View Post
                BTW, placing markers on the ocean floor (which has been done) and watching them drift apart (which they do) also provides strong evidence of plate tectonics. The animation provided is quite accurate (although it was sped up to show, in seconds, a process that takes thousands of years).
                David, I’m not saying that no drifting occurs of tectonic plates. I’m saying that your idea of Pangaea or the sea floor spreading 1000 miles is purely inferential. Even the word “Pangaea” has striking resemblances to a similar disproven theory. People grow about 12” between 0 and 13 months of age. That doesn’t mean they will eventually reach the moon. More important however is a revealing weakness of the “sea floor spreading” theory that can only be discerned through scrutinizing money expenditures, or “following the money trail”. If a theory is weak, it can survive being taught to unsuspecting children and university students but not corporate spenders. A large government can temporarily sustain a flow of currency based on a flawed premise as is evidenced by government-run lotteries. No GNP is produced but dollars are returned to the government coffers just like tax dollars. In a sense, lotteries are a form of taxation to the ignorant (usually poorer people) since the odds are overwhelmingly against the lotto ticket purchaser. (ref. 1, 2) If everyone played the lottery without reservation, then the people would become penniless and indebted to the government. That system would soon collapse with angry rioters demanding a return of their money. Presently, the U.S. has not reached the critical riot stage with government-funded teaching of evolution because the ignorant players in this case still think they are receiving value from their “impossible odds” tickets. The higher echelons of the corporate business world are more savvy (not necessarily moral) and know that purchasing “impossible odds” tickets is not a path to wealth. If a theory does not equate to dollars in the bank, then that theory is useless for corporate strategy. How does “sea floor spreading” theory fare in the corporate world of oil exploration? The theory predicts that oil should not exist in locations where insufficient time has transpired for oil to form. If the theory is correct, then millions of dollars can be saved by not looking in needless places. Unfortunately, this theory steers oil explorers in the wrong direction! The theory fails on not one, but twenty-six counts of explaining known phenomena. Don’t take my word for it but read this NON-CREATIONIST abstract (evolutionist vocabulary abounds) from the American Association of Petroleum Geologists:

                Arguments favoring drift have been published widely, but facts which refute this concept are published only rarely. Many of the same facts which refute drift also eliminate earth expansion. Many phenomena are not explained by drift. Among them are: (1) the probable restriction of convection currents (if they can exist at all) to the upper mantle low-velocity zone, about 100 to 300 km thick; (2) lack of a driving mechanism for convection; (3) convection-cell geometry in plan view (e.g., several mid-ocean ridges--allegedly the locales of upwelling mantle currents--join or intersect compressional belts--the supposed locales of downturning mantle currents); (4) the steady flow requirement of current convection hypotheses; (5) the distribution of upper mantle density variations determined rom satellite geodesy; (6) the equatorial bulge; (7) lateral chemical composition changes in the upper mantle; (8) preliminary radiometric (K-Ar) dates (obtained in 1968 by the writer from G. D. Afanas'yev of the USSR Academy of Sciences), which range from late Proterozoic (Riphean) through Paleozoic; the dates are from metamorphic rocks of the Mid-Indian-Carlsberg Ridge system; (9) an unexplained Cambrian trilobite fauna from east of the Mid-Atlantic Ridge at 42°21^prime N, 17°12^prime W; (10) the narrow width of high heat-flow bands at mid-ocean ridge crests;. . . (click here for full source)
                I used to calibrate oil exploration sensory equipment at Geospace Corp. in Houston, TX. I never heard the term “sea floor spreading” until about 2 weeks ago when doing research for this forum. I was familiar with the uniformitarian Pangaea theory so I immediately smelled a rat. Pangaea largely draws from the fact that the east coast of South America matches the curvature of the west coast of Africa. From this observance, inferences are made that the two continents were once joined eons ago. What these theorists seem to overlook is that the opposite sides of rivers are parallel with one another but that doesn’t mean the river banks were joined together long ago. Pangaea and sea floor spreading stories stretch the imagination to great distances but are dismal in their ability to locate oil and increase corporate earnings. Such is the fate of evolution’s rich heritage, or should I say heritage of destitution.

                Originally posted by David Kenny View Post
                I also can't get the image of the Himalaya's , and the Andie's "when still soft" out of my head. What a hoot! Those idiot's who did Mt. Rushmore should have done it when it was still soft.
                David, if you re-read my posts, you will not find any place where I state the Himalaya or Andes mountains were formed while soft. Before making such a statement, I would investigate their composition and structure. I did however show photographs of land masses that were shaped while soft. Their smooth bends are not easily explained using long-age mechanisms. Take for instance a “soft” laboratory test material and compare the resultant bends with the “folded” mountain photos.





                I would love to see the sandbox model enacted with the weighty top layer of sand removed.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Rodney Hicks View Post
                  The fire heap only exists in the minds of those that believe in God. For the rest of humanity, there is no fire heap.
                  Jesus spoke of a literal Hell. Jesus believed in God. The “rest of humanity” crucified him. Whose perception of reality is correct? Jesus Christ’s or “the rest of humanity”? Whose philosophy should we believe? Are you selling any books? Would anyone purchase your philosophy if it was marketed? As to whether or not the “fire heap” or “Hell” is literal, take note of the difference between metaphors and literals:

                  S1: Rodney is a giant among men.
                  Q: What do you mean?
                  S2: His intellect reaches the stars.

                  Would you agree that S1 and S2 are both metaphors? If not, then don’t read below this line, because what follows incorporates human logic and intercourse based on observation rather than science fiction. Or you may choose to brush up on literary devices here.

                  S3: Rodney is a giant among men.
                  Q: What do you mean?
                  S4: He is a head taller than others.

                  Would you agree that S3 and S4 are literal? If you believe S4 is metaphorical, then would you agree that the person making that statement is either antagonistic or evasive in his answers? Most people would believe S4 to be literal because we “observe” head dimensions whereas in S2, we don’t observe physical extensions growing from people’s heads that reach the stars.

                  Here is an example of Jesus using metaphors to tell a story. Later, when his disciples asked him the meaning of the story, Jesus used “observable” evidences to give a “literal” interpretation of the story.
                  === Matthew 13:24-30 (metaphorical story) ===

                  Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

                  But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed thorns among the wheat, and went his way.

                  But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the thorns also.

                  So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it thorns?

                  He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

                  But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the thorns, ye root up also the wheat with them.

                  Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the thorns, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
                  === Matthew 13:36-42 (literal interpretation) ===

                  Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the thorns of the field.

                  He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

                  The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the thorns are the children of the wicked one;

                  The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

                  As therefore the thorns are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

                  The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

                  And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
                  So, from these verses, here is what's literal:
                  Son of man - Jesus
                  this world
                  beleivers
                  unbeleivers
                  devil
                  end of the world
                  angels
                  separation of beleivers from unbelievers
                  burning furnace of fire

                  I stated earlier, that Jesus used “observable evidences” to connect to his listeners. None of his listeners doubted the literalness of angels or devils. The group of followers that heard Jesus’ interpretation had just witnessed devils being cast out in the preceding chapters: Matthew 9:32, Matthew 12:22. Even those who opposed Jesus were forced to derive an alternate interpretation when they witnessed him casting out devils from at least two individuals. Their alternate interpretation did not negate the existence or reality of devils.

                  My question to you Rodney, is this: “Is Matthew 13:36-42 literal or figurative?”

                  Whether or not you believe the words of Jesus in Matthew 13:36-42 are true, I believe most would agree (believers & unbelievers) that Jesus was speaking literally since all of his explanations for the metaphorical were observable examples. If you deliberately disregard reason so as to prolong facing responsibility, then your disregard will plunge you yet further into non-reality: Jesus was either a deliberate liar or he was a “sincere” self-deceived person. Either choice presents a severe contradiction of reality. How can a person of this low caliber surpass all historical and modern-day figures in being the most quoted person? “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.”, “A house divided against itself cannot stand.”, “Remove the log from your own eye before you try to remove a splinter from another’s.” etc., If Jesus was only a good teacher, then how can he say, “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.”, and not be a deceiver since he is giving people false hope? More people have written books about him despite him never having written a book. The entire person of Jesus is the most contradictory individual that ever lived if he is not who he said he was: “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”

                  The fact of the matter is, Jesus is the most sound-minded individual that ever lived while mankind is utterly depraved and sick. Watch the news for about 5 minutes.

                  John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

                  Comment


                  • Alan,
                    Do us all a favo(u)r.
                    Stop producing this mindless nonsense
                    Believe what you want to believe, but please leave it alone.
                    It was funny once, but now it's just insulting our intelligence.
                    Regards,
                    Dave.

                    You're never too old to learn something stupid.

                    Comment


                    • Allan,

                      What world do you live in? One where flood waters push things uphill? In my neck of the woods, floods only take things down hill. I suppose if a huge volume of water was dumped above the clams then they could be ‘splashed’ up hill. But that would be rewriting the story of the flood that came down in the form of rain. Blasphemy!

                      You are right, because people can’t grow to the moon, there is no way the sea floor could spread thousands of miles. It was a mental slip on my part.

                      I apologize, you didn’t say the Andie’s or the Himalaya’s were formed while soft. You did say “Mountains can be shaped quickly when still soft” and I guess I made an inference.

                      Nice picture of sand pushed up to show folding layers. I couldn’t quite make out the board in the other pictures though. (you know, the one that pushed the mountain to fold it). And what about the force that would have pushed that board? I suppose the flood, slamming against the board with enough force, could have pushed the mountain enough to cause that (I know, when 'soft'). Or, it could be plate tectonics. No Wait, we disproved that above. Let’s go with the flood idea.

                      Dave,

                      My question to you Dave, is this: “Is your signature to be taken literally or figuratively?”
                      (I like it in either case)

                      David

                      Comment


                      • “The clams could have been growing for 50 years then afterwards wash to a higher elevation during the flood, just as boulders can relocate in flood waters as shown here. What is interesting is that these giant clam fossils, located high in Peru's Andes mountains, are all in the closed position which indicates they were buried rapidly without the opportunity for their adductor muscles to relax and open the shell as pictured below in non-catastrophic deaths.”


                        “Lordy, Lordy!
                        Looks who’s forty!”

                        “A religious fanatic is an 40-year old adult who sinks like a four-year old.” (A Joshua of Nazareth, Palestine, 1940).

                        Having beliefs, including religious, is a private matter and also a right. Problem is when one unlocks the cage of his soul and lets the monsters ride free. The gods might bring comfort if locked inside that cage named SOUL. If unleashed, all gods are exactly that: Monsters. Just think of all those religious wars that have continuously flooded the floor of humanity with precious blood.

                        Religion might be a tool that brings an easy sleep to a human being. But religion is NOT the tool of the Truth. If you mix the sleeping aid with the Truth, you ain’t nothing but a fanatic.

                        In conclusion, enjoy that tool that Science created: Internet. If religion were Almighty, Homo sapiens would still live in caves. It was Evolution that brought those cave creatures all the way up to the Internet.

                        Comment


                        • Alan,
                          Do us all a favo(u)r.
                          Stop producing this mindless nonsense

                          It’ll never work — ever! A fanatic is really thick. Also, keep in mind that fanatics usually follow orders from the elders of their worshipping places. You can’t appeal to their Reason, for they only have irrationality in their brains.

                          The only effective method of dealing with fanatics is reductio ad absurdum. Bring their argument to a case of absurdity. The fanatics can dish it out, but they can’t take it. They can’t take it for too long, anyway.

                          I remember cases of religious fanaticism I had to deal with. A 40-year old male of Jehovah’s Witnesses turned very aggressive against me after my categorical refusal to join their cult. I solved the problem by showing to all the guys my collection of kitchen knives. They never returned.

                          The cult still bothered me for a few years thereafter. They only sent women to my places with their junky pulp. “Awaken! Repent! Awaken!” Two women at a time. Once I said to the two women: “Get in! I’ll f*** for free! You’ll never forget the Piercing Tiger I’ll do to you!” (The Piercing Tiger is a religious-like sexual act worshipped in the Far East; both man and woman kneel.) The two women ran away and I’ve never seen them again at my door. The cult stopped sending women (or men) to my places. Coincidence of coincidences! I needed a notary act when I bought a vehicle. The document (title of ownership) did not come to me after a long time! I bombarded the state government with complaints! I went back to the notary place. It struck me that the woman who performed the notary act was one of the two I invited to give em a Piercing Tiger for free! It must be she took revenge! You see, I should have done a better job at convincing them that the Piercing Tiger is a really good thing! She blushed when I asked her if “we should do the Piercing Tiger thing sometime”! I can only tell you that I got the document that I really needed!

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Marzo Pollea View Post
                            The fanatics can dish it out, but they can’t take it.
                            They seem to have met a worthy opponent.

                            Comment


                            • The only effective method of dealing with fanatics is reductio ad absurdum
                              .

                              He did it to himself.
                              It didn't work.

                              P.S David the sig. was under my wife's instruction
                              Dave.

                              You're never too old to learn something stupid.

                              Comment




                              • Originally posted by Dave Stanton View Post
                                Alan, Do us all a favo(u)r. Stop producing this mindless nonsense Believe what you want to believe, but please leave it alone. It was funny once, but now it's just insulting our intelligence. Regards,
                                Dave, it’s all very simple. Just repeat this phrase three times and the pain will cease:
                                I will never again visit a web site that questions my faith.

                                Many others have taken the bold step, so why not you?

                                Shawn Anderson - “I promised myself I wouldn't be involved in this thread but…”

                                Ian Webling - “I had promised myself I would not get involved in any more debates”; “I swore I'd never post another comment in this thread; this is it.”

                                Rui Rodrigues - “I'm not available to waste my very precious time…on such a debate, again.”; “I will not participate in any evolution debate. (I've had my share, here)”

                                Chris Holbrook - “I gave up on this thread long ago, but reluctantly I must join in again…”

                                Dave, the problem with all of this swearing is that these individuals are not in control of their lives. This forum is a means for them to check the pulse of their religion and to share their faith and encouragement with others. When perceived realities are in question, man will always return to his old neighborhood, the scene of the crime, or a forum that challenges his faith.

                                Romans 7:20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. (NIV)

                                Comment

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