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  • #61
    Steve--

    how well does your 64 bit graphics run on 32 bit Win 10
    The PowerBASIC version only 32-bit.
    The C++ version on everything else, including 32-bit.

    I have learned the hard way, to never put all my eggs into the same basket.

    ...
    Patrice Terrier
    www.zapsolution.com
    www.objreader.com
    Addons: GDImage.DLL 32/64-bit (Graphic library), WinLIFT.DLL 32/64-bit (Skin Engine).

    Comment


    • #62
      OK, so the answer is a 64 bit app in 32 bit Win10 does not run at all and that is the point. 64 bit is a ton of fun in MASM but in many instances its no faster or smaller than the 32 bit version, it depends almost entirely on the task. If I need multi gigabytes of memory, 64 bit MASM is the choice but if I need small size and speed for tasks that are not highly memory dependent, 32 bit MASM out performs 64 bit code.

      I mention MASM for a reason, its a good comparison when you are not guessing about what libraries do what and it proves that the choice of 32 or 64 bit code is task dependent. PB is on the faster end of 32 bit compilers and can port a lot of MASM code with little modification so it is competitive in the 32 bit field. Look at the distribution of OS versions and you will find that 64 bit isn't going anywhere fast. Win10 is going backwards, a retail version of Win7 64 Ultimate is close enough to unobtainable and XP just keeps running and running. With the dis-satisfaction level of Win 10 64 users, never ending updates, repeatedly changing user settings, endless junk being dumped on your boot drive and the Win3 option to solve OS problems, "reinstall windows", committing yourself to Win 10 64 bit shuts out much of the market.
      hutch at movsd dot com
      The MASM Forum

      www.masm32.com

      Comment


      • #63
        Steve--

        When you are a third party provider, you have to follow the market and fulfill the request of your users, or get retired and go live in NOZ.
        Patrice Terrier
        www.zapsolution.com
        www.objreader.com
        Addons: GDImage.DLL 32/64-bit (Graphic library), WinLIFT.DLL 32/64-bit (Skin Engine).

        Comment


        • #64
          Hi Steve,

          My adventures with trying to build a Windows 64 bit distribution for Script BASIC was like developing in a baron wasteland. I don't see Microsoft investing big in Windows going forward other than as a presentation piece and surly not doing anything 64 bit other than Office and server offerings.

          Comment


          • #65
            Tell that to the purchasing officer in a company that has a few thousand XP machines that are doing the job just fine. Being locked into 64 bit only wipes out a large slice of the market where the vendor of both can appeal to businesses that just don't need the expense of buying licences to hundreds or thousands of OS versions for their company's computers. Then of course they have to buy the 64 bit software to run on it if they see some reason to migrate to 64 bit.

            When what a vendor has to say to a company like this is "All you need to do is update all of your company's machines" THEN buy 64 bit software, they will go somewhere else. The real comparison is properly written 32 bit software will run on both Win32 and Win64 where 64 bit will only run on a 64 bit system.

            I am writing 64 bit MASM because I want to, not because I have to and where you need large memory, its the way to go. Recently I have been working on video editing using commercial software and big memory and editing 4k video that tops a gigabyte in about 1 minute of shooting tells you what to use but even editing 24 megapixel still images work happily in my 2000 Picture Publisher.

            Future proofing may be the sales pitch but the simple response is "shame about the lack of backwards compatibility". If you know how unpopular Win 10 Professional is among businesses that are really tired of the bugs, auto-updates dumping junk in your boot drive, changing settings, telemetry (spying on your data) and endless advertising their product range, you will know why its market share is actually dropping. You cannot buy Win7 64 Ultimate Retail any longer but XP is just about eternal as it does the job in most commercial instances.
            hutch at movsd dot com
            The MASM Forum

            www.masm32.com

            Comment


            • #66
              I run Windows XP, Windows 7 & Windows 10 32 OS in a VirtualBox on Ubuntu 64 bit. I use VB6 + user enhancements for an easy to use COM experience and glue to Office and VS2008 for C++ support that may be needed. I use TDM-GCC32 for all my cross platform projects.

              Comment


              • #67
                The reason I wanted 64-Bit is because of the 4 Gig memory limit. I'm not a fan of C++. But I write OpenGL games, and I need more then just 4 gigs for what I have planned / been working on. Currently I'm am stuck with C# for 64Bit so that I can go beyond 4 gig ( actually 3.8 gigs ) limit. And for huge servers this is a no go. There are many reasons to need 64-Bit now days. 64-Bit is the future. Whether we like it or not. Yes, 32-Bit is still supported, but with the attitude, "32-bit still works so you don't need 64-bit" is simply missing the point. You can't advance without the tools to show / prove the concept.

                With that said, I have loved PowerBasic for years. But now with the projects I want to do and the world changing, I can't with PB 3.8 gig limits, which makes it a useless tool for me. And writting out several programs with different languages is counter productive. I might as well learn C# like the rest of the world and stick with it. At leat it has 64Bit support.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Steve Hutchesson View Post
                  Tell that to the purchasing officer in a company that has a few thousand XP machines that are doing the job just fine.
                  .
                  This is simply not true for large enterprise organizations, hardware refresh occurs every two years... and those that use MS products are already on support plan...and in a lot of cases - depending on the regulatory compliance they need to maintain, it could lead to severe penalties if they are not up to date with respect to the OS....

                  Sr. Software Development Engineer and Sr. Information Security Analyst,
                  CEH, Digital Forensic Examiner

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Thomas,

                    While I am sure there are companies that are locked into contractual arrangements with Microsoft, there is a vast number that are not around the world and it is the same question for so many of them, why should they spend a fortune on new hardware, OS versions and software when their XP systems run just fine and they already own it ? I have seen medium sized companies here in OZ that are still using 16 bit DOS software because it works. Its the usual "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

                    John,

                    Ther are good reasons to write 64 bit software, primarily the capacity to allocate very large amounts of memory and the main contenders here are servers, video editing, data bases and probably the CAD folks. I am not hearing good things about the performance of c# and its mainly the reason why C++ is still the premium Microsoft development environment as it can deliver the performance where necessary. The problem is that there are a vast number of commercial application that barely ever use more than a megabyte of memory let alone multi-gigabyte memory allocations and unless you need the extra memory, you are getting bigger and slower software for the effort.

                    > I might as well learn C# like the rest of the world and stick with it. At leat it has 64Bit support.

                    There is a lesson that many here have already learnt who came from a VB6 background, Microsoft change their mind and they were left high and dry with a dead product and all of their expertise was wasted. Committing yourself to another restricted Microsoft product leaves you vulnerable to exactly the same effect. There has always been wisdom in having a number of different irons in different fires, one drops out and you still have the others.
                    hutch at movsd dot com
                    The MASM Forum

                    www.masm32.com

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Steve Hutchesson View Post
                      Thomas,

                      While I am sure there are companies that are locked into contractual arrangements with Microsoft, there is a vast number that are not around the world and it is the same question for so many of them, why should they spend a fortune on new hardware, OS versions and software when their XP systems run just fine and they already own it ? I have seen medium sized companies here in OZ that are still using 16 bit DOS software because it works. Its the usual "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."
                      .
                      For any company that has "hundreds of thousands" of computers using XP then they are doomed to fail, so I challenge that assertion that it's "hundreds of thousands"... any company that doesn't have a hardware refresh program AND doesn't have a support contract is just asking for problems... if the hardware goes down... if the computers are compromised... etc, etc....

                      Sr. Software Development Engineer and Sr. Information Security Analyst,
                      CEH, Digital Forensic Examiner

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        You misquoted Hutch, but nonetheless...

                        I too have customers that are still using XP. If I could get away with it, Mrs. Ex would still have a Windows 2000 system, but I digress.

                        Large companies do employ large numbers of programmers and have vastly more end-users, but the PowerBASIC community doesn't comprise a typical cross-section. Your company may even have purchased multiple PB licenses, but I'm confident that the majority of PowerBASIC licenses do not belong to large programming shops. My point being that we all paid roughly the same amount of money to PowerBASIC for our compilers, and we are the most immediate target audience for future versions, if any.


                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Thomas,

                          We appear to live in parallel universes in that over the years including currently I see companies with Unix servers, mainframes and often a mix of different types of PCs from MACs to Windows to Linux.
                          hutch at movsd dot com
                          The MASM Forum

                          www.masm32.com

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by John Mieske View Post
                            With that said, I have loved PowerBasic for years. But now with the projects I want to do and the world changing, I can't with PB 3.8 gig limits, which makes it a useless tool for me. And writting out several programs with different languages is counter productive. I might as well learn C# like the rest of the world and stick with it. At leat it has 64Bit support.
                            John, there is no need to cross to the C# dark side if you don't want to. There is a very nice commercially-available 64-bit BASIC compiler out there which has good support (and excellent support for graphics). I don't think I am permitted to mention the name here but it is not hard to find if you look for it.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Vb.net?

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Knuth Konrad View Post
                                Vb.net?
                                No, I was referring to PureBasic.

                                Comment


                                • #76
                                  I truly hope PowerBasic can continue. Good luck Vivian.

                                  Comment


                                  • #77
                                    C# and Vb.Net are not worth the trouble, as its compile assemblies are in MSIL which are in clear text. Hence, if you want your users to see your source code then you
                                    can use them. There are many obfuscation software that supposedly can obfuscate these MSIL but they all fail our tests, when we use commercial or amateur decompilers on them.

                                    The only method is to use native compilers like PureBasic and XOJO.

                                    Comment

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