Windows7 - anyone tested ?

[Scott Slater]

I run VMWare under Windows7 x64 and run DOS 6.22 under it. It works great for all of my DOS programming needs.

[Scott Turchin]

I tried under 64x, no joy.

I have not tried under 32 bit, but even if it runs, definitely not supported, definitely COULD run weird.

I'm running a DOS based BBS on Windows XP right now though, you can do more with XP than I thought you could

[Bernhard Fomm]

Will it give PB-DOS for the cloud?

[Barry Erick]

Isn't the question not of how it does it but if it'll run on "my/his" machine? Wether or not it is doing emulation is besides the point.

I have Win7/64 on my main desktop and win7/32 on my other 3 laptop/netbooks and there is a difference on even windows programs that run on XP or Vista but no lower that will not run on the 64 bit.(Sonicart) But on this machine I have a VM to check them out on. I would never use a program that will only run under vm, however. Except for my PDA backup as my PDA is down and the information I have is there.
Anyway, if it does not run on the 64bit machine, I won't have it run on my other machines. I don't care why it won't, but some even send me to the task manager as windows thinks they run and let them.

[Bill Parker]

Windows 7 - anyone tested

I managed to haul out my old PB 3.0c for DOS 3.5" floppies (which were still readable after seventeen (17) plus years in a external USB floppy drive.

I do most of the development on older DOS code in VirtualBox under windows 7 64-bit ultimate edition. I have managed to get it working in PC-DOS 7, MS-DOS 5.0, and as of today, FreeDOS 1.x (which is free and available as a image for use under VirtualBox).

I must say that while it's not PB 3.5 for DOS, the 3.0c version has held up well, and I can compile and run code which operates correctly in DOS (either in a stand alone DOS machine or in a VM with the above mentioned O/S).

While it would be nice if PB 3.5 for DOS was designed to operate in Windows 7 (32/64), it works quite well the way I'm using it, and if I need GUI support, I can always get PB for Windows (so far, it is working well for maintaining old code or testing some new stuff).

[Brice Manuel]

Emulation is automatic

All of the emulation that Windows 7 uses is automatic, which is why so many do not realize something is actually running under emulation until it is pointed out to them.

[Mike Doty]

Emulation is automatic for 16-bit programs using Windows 7 32-bit.
There are 11 different compatibilty modes (none may be needed.)
If anyone is having a problem, please post it.
Mentioning DOS will be considered the same as using a 16-bit program.

[Brice Manuel]

Windows 7 32-bit comes with a 16-bit subsystem so many DOS programs will work.

They will only work under emulation. You can only run DOS programs under emulation on Windows 7. DOS programs are NOT supported on Windows 7. If you don't believe me, please read up on NT Virtual DOS Machine which is the emulator that Microsoft uses on Windows 7. I have provided links with full details on the emulator.

Your second posting talks about using DOSBOX which may not be necessary.

The emulator that Microsoft uses is very limited and has compatibility issues. Microsoft's emulator was designed for text based programs, not graphics based programs. As Roger pointed out, Microsoft's emulator even has problems with certain text based programs.

[Mike Doty]

Windows 7 32-bit comes with a 16-bit subsystem so many DOS programs will work.
We are not talking about running DOS, but running 16-bit applications.
Your second posting talks about using DOSBOX which may not be necessary.

[Brice Manuel]

To tell people DOS programs won't run on 32-bit Windows 7 is incorrect.

But I have not done that, have I? Please do not say I said something I did not say. I have continually said that DOS is NOT supported on Windows 7 (or any NT version for that matter) which is a undeniable fact. I have continually said if you want to use DOS programs under Windows 7 it will only run under emulation which is also an undeniable fact. I have provided MSDN links to 100% reaffirm what I have said.

To claim that Windows 7 supports DOS is just as silly as claiming Windows 7 supports C64 software or Apple II software just because they can run under emulation on Windows 7. Emulation does not equal support. Emulation is what you use when your hardware or software will no longer support something. Even Microsoft clearly admits that DOS programs now run under emulation and Microsoft has provided extensive information (which I gave links to) on how the emulator actually works and its limitations.

This thread reminds me of some of the conversations I have had on game development forums where somebody is complaining about getting reports from some testers that mouse or keyboard control is not working in the game they are writing. You try and explain to them the mistake is because they are using DirectInput which Microsoft says you should no longer use for keyboard or mouse control. They say you are wrong, you point them to the MSDN articles, the whitepapers, the videos and the powerpoints from the conferences MS has put on, and they are still convinced they are right and MS is wrong.

[Mike Doty]

Windows 7 does not support DOS. If you want to run DOS software under Windows 7, you should look into DOSBox . DOSBox works great and it is free.

To tell people DOS programs won't run on 32-bit Windows 7 is incorrect.
The 16-bit subsystem is part of 32-bit Windows 7 and doesn't work with your programs.
The majority of programs you use don't work.

[Brice Manuel]

You agree text mode is supported (they don't have to be simple applications.)

No, I can't agree as your statement is incorrect. It is not supported, it will only run under emulation.

I am not stating opinion, I am merely stating fact and I have provided reference links for those who under the false assumption that Windows 7 supports DOS programs and do not understand that emulation is actually being used to allow these archaic programs to run.

[Mike Doty]

Do your programs run on XP?
Do your applications require high resolution graphics?
You agree text mode is supported (they don't have to be simple applications.)
Are you talking about 32-bit Windows 7?


http://www.windowsbbs.com/windows-7/...lications.html

[Brice Manuel]

Okay, your applications don't work for some reason.

No, not for some reason, for the reason that DOS programs are not supported under Windows 7. The emulator was designed to emulate simple text-based programs.

[Mike Doty]

Okay, your applications don't work for some reason.

[Brice Manuel]

Labeling the 32/64bit Windows Console application known as cmd.exe "DOS" in a shortcut is about as effective as labeling the Vista+ settings folder hack "Godmode"...Win Vista/7 isn't a FPS Game.

Although this is a very common mistake, I see it as having two main causes:

1. We have a generation of programmers who were literally never exposed to the days of a pure DOS system. They do not even know what DOS is.

2. We have another generation who is anti-change and has not kept up with the changes in modern operating systems and are trying to approach something when they have no understanding of what is actually going on. They expect things to work like they used to and when they see something that looks like it used to, they think things haven't changed.

16-bit applications run fine with Windows 7 32-bit.

Unfortunately, they are not supported and they will only run under emulation. The emulator is very limited and has compatibility issues.

I have no choice in the matter as the majority of DOS programs I use on a regular basis will not work under Windows 7's emulator. I have to use DOSBox or fire up one of my dedicated DOS machines.

[Mike Doty]

16-bit applications run fine with Windows 7 32-bit.
Full screen mode is not supported (it can be done with modifications.)

When each DOS app is loaded these also load:
cmd.exe
conhost.exe
ntvdm.exe

If you have trouble with expanded memory, edit:
\windows\system32\config.nt
EMM=RAM

[Roger Garstang]

Labeling the 32/64bit Windows Console application known as cmd.exe "DOS" in a shortcut is about as effective as labeling the Vista+ settings folder hack "Godmode"...Win Vista/7 isn't a FPS Game.

DOS was 16bit...I'd probably say the last true DOS was 6.22 back in 1994. Support for it ended 12/31/2001. There were variations of just command.com through Win ME which went as far as disabling extracting it...although copies exist. "DOS" 7+ is mostly different in that it supported FAT32, although I believe even then it was still 16bit, so much slower access to a 32bit FAT than Windows. NT Based Systems do not use DOS, but NT Native code which takes a CD to boot from and won't even fit on a floppy. DOS won't even read an NTFS drive without a special hack.

While certain applications work in the emulated cmd.exe "DOS", others do not and are limited. Char mappings are different, chars themselves are even drawn different. Response is slower. Some Graphics modes aren't supported. Windows handles certain user input. I have 3-4 DOS apps where I actually captured Ctrl+Alt+Del which can't be done in Windows. TSR Apps will most likely also be very difficult. You will need something like DOS Box (As suggested) or VM installs to get 100% usage.

[Jim Dunn]

Tom was right; the first guy said 'Win 7 does not support DOS', which is correct; the second guy said 'DOS apps run under the 32-bit version of Win 7', also correct.

Then it got messy; the second guy had a religion to proclaim, I think it was called 'The Truth About The Command Prompt'; the first guy stepped on one of his commandments.

My sin was bothering to write this.

[Brice Manuel]

I like horse quotes too:

"There Are More Horse's Asses Than There Are Horses"

I believe reasonable people would agree that I answered Matthias' question.

, and yet you told me I was wrong in this post, but still have been unable to prove what I said was wrong and instead continually contradict yourself with your screenshots. You keep showing us images of DOS programs running under emulation on Windows 7 and try and lie to us and convince us that Windows 7 supports DOS. I guess you also believe Microsoft is wrong? No offense, but I will take Microsoft's word over yours as they wrote the OS. And guess what? The MSDN docs 100% reaffirm what I said!