Announcement

**Tom Hanlin** · 15 Aug 2000, 08:46 AM

The CPUs used by Windows CE machines are not compatible with Intel processors. The PowerBASIC compiler would need to be massively rewritten to work with each of the different CPUs involved. This could happen, but is not exactly an immediate prospect.

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Tom Hanlin
PowerBASIC Staff

**Chris Boss** · 15 Aug 2000, 12:05 PM

While of course converting PB to work on other CPUs would mean
a lot of work for PowerBasic, but IMO if a version of PB for use
on a Windows CE device could be made, it would be a "hit".

PowerBasics greatest strength is the "small size" of the executables
that the compiler produces. The Windows CE platform by its nature
requires as small an app as possible. Since PB produces apps that
are nearly as fast as ones written in C, it would make a fantastic
tool for Windows CE development.

Of course this is only a "wish", but it could open up larger markets
for the PB compiler. VB wouldn't have a chance compared to PB for
CE.

I cast my vote for a Windows CE compiler !

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**Dean Sadata** · 15 Aug 2000, 01:08 PM

I agree. Just judging by the huge demand for the Compaq iPaq 3630/50 and HP Jornada 540/5/8 Pocket PCs, the redesigned Windows CE 3.0 is already a huge success. These units are getting rave reviews in almost every computer magazine, and the potential for widespread wireless Internet access will certainly add fuel their success over the next couple years.

Also, development sites seem to be popping up all over:
http://www.pocketpc.com/ http://vbce.com/ http://www.pocketprojects.com http://www.pocketnow.com/ http://www.cetj.com/ http://www.cewindows.net/ http://www.hpc.net/ http://www.pocketdownloads.com/ http://www.vbforce.com/ http://wincecity.com/boards/Developers/ http://www.cetoolbox.com/ http://www.members.home.com/pocket-central/

If I were PowerBASIC, I would be devoting a significant part of my development team to CE. Various forms of this embedded OS will be popping up in all sorts of places (cell phones, photocopiers, AutoPCs, etc.).

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**Michael Mattias** · 15 Aug 2000, 03:56 PM

Originally posted by Dean Sadata:
I agree. Just judging by the huge demand for the Compaq iPaq 3630/50 and HP Jornada 540/5/8 Pocket PCs, the redesigned Windows CE 3.0 is already a huge success. These units are getting rave reviews in almost every computer magazine, and the potential for widespread wireless Internet access will certainly add fuel their success over the next couple years.

If I were PowerBASIC, I would be devoting a significant part of my development team to CE. Various forms of this embedded OS will be popping up in all sorts of places (cell phones, photocopiers, AutoPCs, etc.).

Hmmm, maybe it's already on the schedule...just as soon as that Linux compiler starts shipping.

MCM

**John Dunbar** · 15 Aug 2000, 08:50 PM

I was going to make a similar post. I just got done looking at (drooling over) Compaq's IPaq.

This thing SCREAMS. I couldn't believe how fast the screens popped up.

Of course, the magazines rave about the development environments, and I wondered if there was a real catch in the VB area. The articles DID NOT mentioned VBScript was the language.

The Compaq IPAQ uses the StrongArm processor. And, has only 4,096 colors. But it can be used in direct sunlight and it has a long life for each battery charge.

I think a PowerBasic/DLL would be great, but it would need to support multiple processors... and I don't think that would be a possibility.

Someone will get rich writing a C++ interpreter for a GUI builder. Right now their is one Forms type package for these Windows CE. It appears to be doing very well.

John

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**Peter Amick** · 15 Aug 2000, 10:27 PM

As usual, I agree. I think PowerBasic is really missing the boat on this one, but I've said that before and obviously no one is listening. I couldn't care less about PowerBasic for *nix (the market is tiny), but CE will be big and PowerBasic would be a perfect fit. PowerBasic for CE would be well worth whatever resources would be required to develop it.

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Peter Amick
Baybuild Solutions

**Lance Edmonds** · 16 Aug 2000, 12:15 AM

Disclaimer... I do not know if PowerBASIC R&D have anything up their sleeve on such a project - they often play their cards close to their chest!

Out of [personal] curiousity, how many of you guys are actually writing for the CE platform with another brand of compiler, or is this request more along the lines of "If we had PB/CE we do it, otherwise we're not interested in devoting the time to learn another all about another brand of compiler, the O/S, and it's quirks" ?

Assuming you have specific goals for such a (series?) of compilers, have you got any *specific* [commercial] projects in mind for this kind of work or is it purely experimental? For your projects to be commercially viable, you'd have to be expecting to deal with either mass-market or vertial-market areas, or your efforts would not be economic.

I guess I'm asking how "serious" and "real-world" these requests are...

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Lance
PowerBASIC Support
mailto:[email protected][email protected]</A>

**Chris Boss** · 16 Aug 2000, 04:40 AM

Lance;

I bought the book "Microsoft Windows CE Programmers Guide" to
learn more about CE. Since CE is a "true" subset of the Windows
API, it would seem that it would be a "natural" step for most
(or at least many) API programmers.

If you can program the API for Windows, you can program CE. The
only thing missing is a compiler.

Palm computers will always be behind desktop PCs when it comes to
things like memory (and whatever permanent storage is used). The
small size obviously limits what they can squeeze in there.

VB is a "poor" choice for Palm computers since a large runtime
and the slew of extra OCXs needed makes it "bloatware". While
this can be overlooked on a desktop PC, it can't on a Palm computer.

I would think PowerBasic is always looking for new markets and this
is one that you could easily become a "leader" in.

We wouldn't even need the full set of PB 6 commands in a CE compiler.
If you could create a CE compiler (cross compiler for multiple CPUs)
with a "minimal subset" of Basic commmands, this would be enough.

I know this is only a "wish", but I think it also makes good
marketing sense.

The future holds many things like Palm computers that can access
the internet. When VCRs and Microwaves first were released few
people had them. Now "everybody" has one. The same may hold true
for Palm computers.

This is just my opinion of course and I am sure you guys at
PowerBasic are looking at this prospect from "all angles".

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[This message has been edited by Chris Boss (edited August 16, 2000).]

**Phil Tippit** · 16 Aug 2000, 08:20 AM

Lance,

I currently have a package written using PBCC and PBDLL which
creates, maintains and generates reports for a large client
doing field disconnects for Time Warner Cable. I am also
using a product called CASLSOFT which is an interpreter with
a runtime that runs on most all Palm handhelds. Using Caslsoft
CE, I created a program to maintain and change the database
on the handheld's by the field technicans doing the actual
work.

Here is how it basically works:

1. Client receives records to be disconnected on disk from Time
Warner. The new data base file is created on the PC using
the CableWork program(written PBCC and PBDLL)

2. The data is processed on the PC and workorders are assigned
out to individual field technicans. The Client will receive
on the average 500 accounts and these are then divided out
to 8 to 10 field techs.

3. The CableWork program then creates CASL database files
for each technican in the Palm User directories. These are then
hotsync'd to the individual techs Palm's.

4. As the field work is done, the techs change the status of
the records on the Palm, reports either disconnects, payments
collected, and converters collected.

5. On return from the field, the Palms are hotsync'd back to the
PC.

6. The PC database is updated from the Palm/User returned
hotsync files.

7. Reports are created, including individual tech results,
overall tech results, total disconnects, total money collected,
total converters picked up, etc.

8. A invoice is created and a outgoing file from the PC is
created on disk for Time Warner to update their database.
Most of this is all done in one day.

We are only doing this currently in one city. But since
Time Warner contracts out most of this work, there is a
market out there of about 3000 contractors.

If we have found this market, there has to be many more
out there similiar.

In conclusion, it would have been and would be great for
future projects, if I could write the code and maintain
the code for the Handhelds with PowerBasic.

My .02 worth.

Phil

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**Brent Eldstrom** · 16 Aug 2000, 05:50 PM

Hello,

I completely agree with everyones wish for a CE compiler from PB. The embedded OS market is very hot right now and CE 3.0 is doing very well in that space. Win CE 3.0 is also hot in non Pocket PC areas such as factory automation, internet appliances, home automation, etc. I am currently working on a home automation system in my spare time and my dream platform would be a PC/104 mini MB with flash storage running Win 3.0 embedded along with Winlift. I could use this for both the touch screens and the home gateway. Currently systems like this can had from companies such as Panja and Crestron for mucho dollars. Even all the newest home automation control standards such as UPnp are TCP/IP based so this fits great with PB.

Brent...

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**John Montenigro** · 16 Aug 2000, 07:32 PM

Lance,
In response to your request for "how serious/how real":

I write applications and utilities for a small family-run
business. They run on our network of server, workstations, and
dockable laptops. I'm adapting some programs for internet.

The apps range from manufacturing, email, order processing, and
other managerial and administrative tasks. Utiliies generally
pertain to data translation and format conversions.

One obstacle is the staff's reluctance to "lug" a laptop
everywhere. (Obviously, none of them remembers the Compaq
"portable" sewing-machine 8086...)

I could probably get my users to take pocket-sized units with
them and use them effectively, IF they saw immediate business
benefit. Must be both: useful and unobtrusive. (BTW, some users
have said that "too small" could also be a problem...)

However, I would not be able to provide development on any
platform that was significantly different from standard DOS and
Windows. We just don't have the resources, nor do we wish to
contract for something so specialized.

*IF* I had access to the CE, AND it resembled what we already
have expertise with, THEN we'd get into it (*provided that* the
cost for the development environment was not unreasonable).

Until then, we recognize that CE would be nice, but we're not
planning on using it yet.

Most assuredly, we would NOT be going outside our own needs
into external markets.

Hope this helps,
-John

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**Peter Amick** · 16 Aug 2000, 08:30 PM

Originally posted by Lance Edmonds:

how many of you guys are actually writing for the CE platform with another brand of compiler

Lance,

I have written a program for CE, a builders calculator which inputs and outputs in feet, inches, cubic yards, etc., for on-the-jobsite work. I have a prototype written in VBCE, but the memory usage and sluggish performance of VB would make me embarrassed to market the program as is. If there was a PowerBasic for CE, the calculator would be on the market today. Not a major program, to be sure, but it's one of several I would be working on if I could get my hands on a good Basic compiler for CE.

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Peter Amick
Baybuild Solutions

**Wyman A Belts** · 17 Aug 2000, 07:37 AM

Peter,
If you deal mostly with the construction industry and have several
of these utilities that they use written in either DOS or Windows, you
may want to take a look at http://www.daptech.com/wbp/produc00.htm
to see some handhelds which use standard desktop OS's. These ****ers
are TOUGH and waterproof. I personally saw one drop 30 feet pausing
only to kiss a fluorescent light on the way down to a concrete floor.
The only damage was the case seal was extruded in one place, but still
completely functional. They're pretty proud of em' with a price of
about/at least $3K a copy, though. We've been using them for four years
in a nuke plant and they've taken everything we can dish out. One
other thing I'd like to say (for outdoor use) is that when it's below
freezing out, the LCD does not fade away like on those old watches.
It's actually temperature compensated. Anyway, just something to
think about in the mean time.

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[email protected]

[This message has been edited by Wyman A Belts (edited August 17, 2000).]

**B Hall** · 17 Aug 2000, 12:50 PM

Well, I like the HP-48 scientific calculator that can accept
input of numerical data and then upload to a PC.

But like a post above gave an example of, the Palms and Pockets
are data flip-sheets or data collectors which interface with
a parent application on a PC. I think that is the model to
be aware of and that's based on experience in an industry that is
remote-site-based or field-mobile.

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**Peter Amick** · 17 Aug 2000, 11:04 PM

Wyman,

Thanks for the tip. I'm familiar with some of the ruggedized CE machines, but I wasn't aware of any running 'standard' Windows. I'll have to look into it, though I don't know how prevalent they are in the construction field, which tends to be a bit lower-tech than the nuclear industry.

Of course, at those prices, I could never afford a test machine!

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Peter Amick
Baybuild Solutions

**Andreas_Allerdahl** · 18 Aug 2000, 02:56 AM

Originally posted by Peter Amick:
As usual, I agree. I think PowerBasic is really missing the boat on this one, but I've said that before and obviously no one is listening. I couldn't care less about PowerBasic for *nix (the market is tiny), but CE will be big and PowerBasic would be a perfect fit. PowerBasic for CE would be well worth whatever resources would be required to develop it.

"the market is tiny"
Well it's even smaller for Windows CE
PLUS *nix isn't ****, windows ce is.

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http://www.sublevel6.f2s.com/

**Dean Sadata** · 18 Aug 2000, 05:55 AM

Originally posted by Andreas_Allerdahl:
"the market is tiny"
Well it's even smaller for Windows CE
PLUS *nix isn't ****, windows ce is.

From what many people are predicting, the CE market will be huge. Linux is pretty much in a class of its own, and while I believe it has great potential and will continue to have a healthy market share, there's too much hype surrounding it. Windows CE, on the other hand, is more or less an extension of what most people already have on their desktops and laptops, and for that reason alone, I believe it will be very successful.

I don't think anyone would dispute that the Palm Pilot is a smashing success, and it seems that Microsoft has taken note of the reasons why Palm was a hit and applied these to CE 3.0. However, I've purposely not purchased a Palm for the last few years because none of the models offered the power and flexibility I wanted.

I just got my wife an HP Jornada 548 PocketPC a few days ago and I have a Compaq iPaq H3650 on order. I can now carry around my email, documents, spreadsheets and databases, in addition to all the basic stuff like contacts, calendars, task lists, notes, etc. In terms of hardware, it's way ahead of Palm (even their high-end models) in every area: display, processor, memory, and expansion. And most important, it's easy to use. Microsoft finally seems to be getting it right, with a few improvements needed here and there. The PocketPC seems to have it's own distinct identity; it's not obscure like the ealier CE handhelds and palmtops that tried to squeeze a scaled-down version of Windows into a smaller (but not really small enough) package. It appears that WinCE 3.0 was designed specifically to support the types applications and functions that the PocketPC would be used for.

Now, as far as development environments, it's got eMbedded Visual C++ (too complex and way too much debugging, etc. for even simple projects) and eMbedded Visual Basic (way too inflexible and greatly lacking in every area). We need ePB (eMbedded PowerBASIC).

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**Peter Amick** · 18 Aug 2000, 07:27 AM

Originally posted by Andreas_Allerdahl:
*nix isn't ****, windows ce is.

I really don't care if CE is **** or not, I only care about what people are using...and I think that people are, and will be, using CE.

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Peter Amick
Baybuild Solutions

**Dean Sadata** · 20 Aug 2000, 06:28 AM

"Handheld devices, now well beyond fad status, accounted for retail sales of $460 million in 1999 and almost matched that amount in the first six months of this year. The pocket-size computers are growing more sophisticated by the day and are being touted for widespread use everywhere from classrooms to hospitals to Navy ships."-The Wall Street Journal, August 8, 2000.

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