Announcement

**Doug Mc** · 6 Jun 2001, 06:08 PM

Well, I really hope you can sell some at $99. Although I wish
DOS was still usefull (I loved it really) fact is its DEAD. Lunix
and others are just too good (not windows but thats the real world
and where the money's at sorry to say) I still use DOS apps
in an old 386 but I'm giving it up. There's no point when I can
use a PIC micro-controller at $10 and do a faster and better job.

Please don't get me wrong, I'm a firm believer in Powerbasic
and I use PB/dll every day. I'ts just, and maybe I'm way off base,
there's no real world application that anyone (if they wanted
a 20th century applicaiton) would use DOS.

I wish PowerBasic would stick to what it does best, make a great
compiler for DLL's and add in more low level stuff. I.E. lets make
some drivers in PB.

Doug

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**Gregery D Engle** · 6 Jun 2001, 06:25 PM

Doug,

I totally disagree. There are many applications that can be
created within DOS. Many old Accounting Software applications
are still created in DOS.

POS applications with little overhead is another application
that comes to mind. Our VoiceMail software on our PBX unit
uses DOS.

Hardware testing Software is usually written in DOS.

An application that can be thrown on a boot disk and executed
can be written in DOS.

Don't bash PB for DOS. I don't own it but I could see a
benefit for it with some customers.

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-Greg

**Bob Zale** · 7 Jun 2001, 12:37 AM

Doug--

We sell Dos compilers because we have thousands of customers who want to buy Dos compilers. Honestly, to them, it's not a major concern whether you approve of their purchase or not. If they want a supported Dos compiler, and we have a supported Dos compiler, we have a solution!

On another topic, why do I think that "Mc" isn't your correct surname? Please re-register with your full first and last names? Thanks!

Bob Zale
PowerBASIC Inc.

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**Steve Hutchesson** · 7 Jun 2001, 02:45 AM

Funny enough, even though I have long stopped writing DOS software
and I have migrated the remains of my brain to 32 bit, I know a
number of businesses that use DOS style databases for their invoicing
and they absolutely don't want to know about GP faults, GUI's and
the rest of what goes to make up windows.

When someone has a dedicated system that works perfectly, is rocket
fast and super reliable, why would they want to get windows software
and all of its associated problems. I never found PB when I wrote
DOS software and by the time I bought it, I never got round to using
it but after having worked in DOS in MASM, Quick Basic and MS C 6,
I wish I had have done so when DOS was still current.

Perhaps the other thing is that there are a lot of computers around the
world that still only run DOS so if someone has a feel for DOS programming
in PowerBASIC, there is probably still a buck in it.

Regards,

[email protected]

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**Gary Akins** · 7 Jun 2001, 06:23 AM

"No real-world application", Doug? Funny, my company just started shipping our latest "real-world application" a couple of months ago, and we're beginning R&D on another one. A couple of PIC microcontrollers to handle low-level hardware stuff, sure, but the main "brain" of the system is a DOS-based PC with a PowerBASIC 3.5 application program.

I'm sure this will come as a tremendous shock to you, but the desktop is not the be-all and end-all of computing. There's these things called "embedded systems" - perhaps you've heard of them? You'd be amazed at how many things there are out there which have little 8088 or 80386SX-based controllers inside them, running DOS and some single-function program; despite Micro$oft's glossy-color trade ads to the contrary, you're not gonna find very many gasoline pumps or seismograph stations running Windows as their OS. (And with good reason, I might add - we evaluated Windows CE early in the design cycle of our last instrument, and after fighting with that piece of **** for a couple of months we abandoned it and went back to DOS.) You just don't see those DOS-based computers, because (a) they don't look like computers, and (b) DOS is simple and reliable enough that the end user never has to think about what's inside.

So don't try to tell me that DOS and DOS-based compilers are "dead", Doug, 'cause I know better - I work in a segment of the industry that uses them every day, and has no intention of changing until something better comes along (and Windows ain't it).

Although if PB would come out with an equivalent of PowerBASIC Console Compiler for Linux...

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**Gary Akins** · 7 Jun 2001, 06:29 AM

Lance - is the .PDF form of the documentation available for download anywhere on the site, and does it have any significant changes from the printed manuals? (I.E. errata sheets, expanded coverage of subjects like the inline assembler, etc.?)

BTW, I commend you guys on continuing to offer printed manuals with your products - online help has its place, but there's times when there's just no substitute for an actual book that you can prop up next to the keyboard and refer to without covering up or switching away from what you're working on.

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**Lance Edmonds** · 7 Jun 2001, 06:49 AM

I'll have to check and get back to you, however, I understand the PDF's are *exactly* the same as the printed volumes.

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Lance
PowerBASIC Support
mailto:[email protected][email protected]</A>

**Tom Hanlin** · 7 Jun 2001, 07:02 AM

The .PDF docs are not significantly different than the printed manuals. The
major difference is just an update of the PowerBASIC contact information.
The .PDF docs are considered part of PB/DOS and are not available for public
distribution. If you own PB/DOS and would like to have the .PDF docs, please
send your request to mailto:[email protected][email protected]</A> and include your
serial number.

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Tom Hanlin
PowerBASIC Staff

**Lance Edmonds** · 7 Jun 2001, 07:24 AM

Karl, R&D have said that there will be *at least* one more major upgrade for PB/DOS at some point in the future.

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Lance
PowerBASIC Support
mailto:[email protected][email protected]</A>

**Frank Kelley** · 7 Jun 2001, 07:45 AM

I work at commercial broadcast stations and we depend extensively on DOS-based apps for operation of some of our stations through satellite automation. One of the applications we use completely controls one of our AM stations, performing complex tasks flawlessly. Most important, the program runs 24 hours a day for years without failures or suffering memory leaks. Meanwhile, our Win98 workstations must be re-booted weekly to clean up memory leaks.

DOS dead? Not yet. And probably not for years to come.

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**Russ Srole** · 7 Jun 2001, 10:03 AM

I too work in the broadcast industry and, although we now have
windows products (pbdll, ezgui & graphics tools, based) much of
our product in the field is dos based. At one network, we touch
almost every important show they do, either with our non-linear
editors, liner tape based editors (yes, they are still in use) or
our network delay system. In the case of the delay system, it
has been on since 12/31/99 with no reboots, crashes or on air
errors. When we talk to new customers, as many are interested in
the older Dos products as the new windows products. If it ain't
broke, don't fix it.

Russ Srole

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**Eric Pearson** · 7 Jun 2001, 11:00 AM

Funny how the universe runs in circles sometimes. My first real job was in master control at a small-market ABC station. I moved from there into cable TV (building studios, etc.) and from there into writing software that is used to insert local spots into cable TV networks. Then I moved into other areas of software, including PowerBASIC add-ons.

Now some of the add-ons that have nothing to do with my background are used by broadcast stations, and I didn't even know it. Strange.

To get back on topic ... In 1990 I wrote an application called Air/Traffic Controller 1.00 for the cable TV spot-insertion business. It's a PB/DOS application, and version 6.32 is still in use by cable companies all over the USA. DOS isn't dead!

My customers tell me if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

And to amplify what others have said... At the wholesale level, XT (8086) chips are now so cheap that it is no longer possible to buy just one. They cost under one cent. 386 chips are not far behind. Day by day they are finding their way into more and more products, and for many, many, many applications, DOS is the perfect operating system.

Would you rather have the traffic light on the corner controlled by a DOS app or a Windows app? That idea gives a new meaning to "operating system crash"...

Long live PB/DOS!

-- Eric

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Perfect Sync Development Tools
Perfect Sync Web Site
Contact Us: mailto:[email protected][email protected]</A>

[This message has been edited by Eric Pearson (edited June 07, 2001).]

**John McWilliams** · 7 Jun 2001, 01:29 PM

To toss another slant on the "DOS ain't dead" bandwagon.
Our psychophysiology labs are pure DOS, why? because we need to
have full access to the hardware, something NT won't allow at the
level we need and something Win9x "kinda allows" but still not
at the level we really need. Our labs will *NEVER* have a GUI
OS, nor will they *EVER* have Linux/*NIX (no device support).
We're locked into DOS forever! In the past, we've contracted our
software, but there are fewer-and-fewer people proficient in writting
DOS applications and, as such, the boss asked "Do you know how
to program a DOS based application?". I guess that means I need
to put in a P.O. for that "dead" compiler that PB is offering for
a mere 99 bucks....

**Russ Srole** · 7 Jun 2001, 01:37 PM

John,

I guess you now have a list of Dos programmers, if you need to
hire someone!

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**Rodney Wirtz** · 7 Jun 2001, 10:28 PM

All:

I have to get my $.02 in here too...

I'm the plant engineer at an aluminum extursion plant and
I have written (over the years) many PBDos programs. Many
run on Nematron Industrial Computers that interface to our
Programmable Logic Controllers (PLC's). What I have found
is that the Nematron computers running PBDos programs are
as reliable as the industrial PLC's. Once one turns-on
'On Error' it's almost impossible to crash the system/program.
Our computers have to run 24/7 without a hiccup and I can
point to one DOS unit that has been running years. I'm amazed
that the harddrive has lasted as long as it has...

Others that run under Windows have their Windows/Networking
issues from time to time, but they never have a issue because
of the PBDos.

I have written Windows programs as well and I can tell you
there's always some issues around Windows. (Just read these
forums.) I program using PBCC and PBDLL primarily with the
third party addins. Love them, but I can tell you that if I
had to write an application that had to be rock solid, I'd
write it in PBDos...

Cheers,
Rodney...

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**Davide Vecchi** · 8 Jun 2001, 07:20 AM

if I had to write an application that had to be rock solid, I'd
write it in PBDos

Me too.

Maybe DOS may die some day, but sure this won' t be due to Windows.

I think that as long as we' ll have people stating that DOS is dead, we will know that it isn' t.

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**Doug Mc** · 8 Jun 2001, 07:33 PM

WOW never thought such a response.

First of all I aggree with most comments and I never intended
to discredit anyone. I still use DOS as I said in the post.
I just find that 99% of my customer's don't want DOS. I don't
like windows (lunix i like) but same story, customers like windows.
So I've found that a good PIC or 8088 ect can do thier control work
that there old DOS app did and they can have the Windows GUI too.

I did miss-speak and I'm sorry.. My thoughts were on device
controll applications.....not DB's or bussiness app's
I'm not knocking anyone or anything. I just think that to tie up
a Pc with DOS to run a mill(for example) is nuts. If I wanted to do
that I'd use Lunix and run 10 mills. No windows can't do it!

As for Tom's question the full name is Douglas McDonald and if you
look back in your records I've been a registered owner of PB/DLL
since ver 1.0 !!

Bottom Line is that if I write code for a device its in ASM and
the GUI is upper level, PB/DLL has made that job very easy
and for that I thank you.....Proper tools for the proper job

now how bout lets forget the GUI stuff and get to what PB does
best...DLL's....Lower level access....SYS driver's maybe?

Sorry again too all..never ment to cause this

Douglas McDonald

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**Lance Edmonds** · 8 Jun 2001, 09:48 PM

Doug, Thanks for the clarifications. Please reregister with your full name before posting further messages... thanks!

[Added later] Doug I've found that you are already registered under your full name. I've deleted the "Doug Mc" user name, so you can ask the BBS to send you the password for your original account from http://www.powerbasic.com/support/fo...?action=lostpw

Thanks!

------------------
Lance
PowerBASIC Support
mailto:[email protected][email protected]</A>

**Chris Boss** · 9 Jun 2001, 04:35 AM

I like working with DOS and a number of my clients are still running
DOS apps I wrote almost 10 years ago (don't fix it if it isn't broke).

The problem with DOS is the "customers perception" !

If you are writing software that will be marketed, it is getting
harder and harder to get the public to buy a DOS app over a Windows
app. They all want Windows programs.

So because of the force of the market itself, DOS will slowly die
a long lingering death. I think Microsoft encourages this, since they
want everyone to use Windows and at some point they won't support
DOS in Windows anymore. (Question: Does Windows XP support DOS apps ?)

Yes, DOS is still a viable operating system.

Will it last ? Likely not as long as some of us wish.

DOS may have a few food years left, but it will eventually pass away,
at least for use by commercial software.

When Windows 95 was released a huge number of commercial software
developers dropped DOS completely and now only make Windows apps.

For the last 6 years, a number of commercial DOS apps that target
vertical markets have survived, but now even many of the companies
that have used DOS up till now are feeling the pressure to port their
apps to Windows. They just can't compete if they don't. The next few years
will see the conversion of many of these legasy DOS apps converted
to Windows. Once that is done, only a few small nitch markets will
tolerate DOS apps.

Now this doesn't mean that Windows is a better operating system, it
is just the nature of commercial markets. Customer perception is
what drives the market and not necessarily true value.

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Announcement

PowerBASIC for DOS reduced to $99!

PowerBASIC for DOS reduced to $99!

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