Where are the newbies?

[Dave Biggs]

>>.."Thou Shalt Now Swim"...

And thus we have MaChoMan

[Darrell Price]

Gosta:

From my perspective you "pretty much summed it up"! Being a newbie to both PowerBasic and programming, I find it a little daunting just trying to get around in the shallow end of the PowerBasic pool, much less get into the deep water with the big fish. When searching POFFS or the forums the answer will sometimes pop out at me, but frequently they will lead to new questions, which in turn will lead to even more questions, etc. Something for beginning programmers, not just experienced programmers new to PowerBasic, would be ideal for those of us who are newbies to both. If I had to venture a guess, I would think that the vast majority of the members of this forum had some experience programming before coming to PowerBasic. Very few came "green".


Chris H:

Can oldies be newbies? Yes, I'm in my 50's with no experience. Do newbies need a discount voucher? Last year I purchased PBWin, PBCC, and PBForms at market price. After remembering the 25 year old recommendation of a friend, I searched for and found the PowerBasic site. After a short deliberation, I purchased said products at what I felt was a fair price. I have purchased upgrades when they have become available. Marketing failure? Not a marketing expert by any stretch of the imagination, but seeing what could be accomplished by a competent programmer with PowerBasic made my decision for me! In my opinion, the deficiency is not with the product, marketing, or price, it is with learning resources for newbies.


Gary B:

I appreciate, and will be using, the PowerBasic section on your site. It looks like it will be a big help to "us newbies"!


Darrell

[Chris Holbrook]

In my opinion, the deficiency is not with the product, marketing, or price, it is with learning resources for newbies.

So just ask the ******* questions! You have a world-class team waiting to answer them!

[Gösta H. Lovgren-2]

So just ask the ******* questions! You have a world-class team waiting to answer them!

And there is a small example what would be an aggressive offputting reply to some Newbies. Submitting oneself to "world class" experts when one has little confidence in his own expertise is a bold step for many.

(Back to the bomb shelter}

=========================================
I conceive that the great part
of the miseries of mankind
are brought upon them by false estimates
they have made of the value of things.
Ben Franklin
=========================================

[John Montenigro]

Submitting oneself to "world class" experts when one has little confidence in his own expertise is a bold step for many.

Very true! Bold is the right word.

I've thought about what it took for me to start posting my questions, and I think it boiled down to this: the pain of not being able to write effective code became greater than the pain of having to defend my lack of knowledge.

I realized that it was inevitable that I would not be able to express my thoughts, questions, ideas in ways that would be readily understood by the smart-a$$ experts. I knew I'd take flack for that, but I had to do it anyway.

I resigned myself that I would have to respond with pains-taking care, and present my thoughts as clearly and explicitly as I could. And that I'd probably have to go 'round several times before they "got" where I was coming from, and I'd "get" what they were referring to.

But in those exchanges, when an expert asked me "well are you trying to do this or that?", it forced me to greater understanding of the nuances that experts see that I as a newbie could not. And thus I put myself in the position of actually learning. Painful but effective.

This has not made me an expert, but it has helped me improve my skills and knowledge in a variety of areas. I'm a lot better than I used to be. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

I think newbies overestimate the perceived value of expertise while ignoring the natural process everyone has to go through to get it.

And I think that experts underestimate the painful vulnerability newbies experience when exposing their possible ignorance on a topic that might be judged "common sense".

But these misconceptions are easily worked out when both come together to get a result, exercising patience and understanding, and leaving pride aside.

In the long run, this is an incredibly cooperative interactive community; spectators are encouraged to get off the bench and come play! You're going to get dirty, but you're going to have more fun!

</philosphical musings before breakfast>

[Chris Holbrook]

the pain of not being able to write effective code became greater than the pain of having to defend my lack of knowledge.

Ergo the problem is in the would-be programmer not in the forum. You need something, you ask for it. Does it give you pain to buy food when you are hungry? In this business knowledge is food.

As a great man once said "God helps those who help themselves"....

[Michael Mattias]

>... "God helps those who help themselves"....

But.... " Thou Shalt not Steal. "

I guess you just have to pick one to live by.

[Gösta H. Lovgren-2]

Ergo the problem is in the would-be programmer not in the forum. You need something, you ask for it. Does it give you pain to buy food when you are hungry? In this business knowledge is food.

As a great man once said "God helps those who help themselves"....

Here we go again. "would-be programmer". How patronizing.

It IS the forum. Where cutting witty remarks, dazzling esoteric obscure (eye of the beholder) code references, ... are prized. All well and good after one has gotten his feet wet. Offputting and discouraging to the timid Newby, though.

Lacking a moderated forum for Newbies (Intro to PB) where said remarks would be proscribed, then a forum for DDT only. No SDK/API refences. snarky remarks be considered declasse. Example code be well commented to ease understanding by Newbies.

"I came up the hard way and so should everybody else." {harumph!}

====================================
"In the End,
we will remember
not the words of our enemies,
but the silence of our friends."
Martin Luther King Jr. (1929-1968)
====================================

[Bob Zale]

The concept of a "novice" forum sounds interesting at first mention. I understand the hesitation to post by some of our newer friends. However, on closer examination, the idea just falls apart.

Why? Because the same folks will respond no matter where the post is placed. Will my friend Michael soften his tone in a novice forum? Unlikely, at best. Should we bar experts from responding? That leaves novices leading novices. That's not likely to end well, either.

It's a cute idea, but it really holds virtually no promise. Sorry...

Bob Zale
PowerBASIC Inc.

[Gösta H. Lovgren-2]

The concept of a "novice" forum sounds interesting at first mention. I understand the hesitation to post by some of our newer friends. However, on closer examination, the idea just falls apart.

Why? Because the same folks will respond no matter where the post is placed. Will my friend Michael soften his tone in a novice forum? Unlikely, at best. Should we bar experts from responding? That leaves novices leading novices. That's not likely to end well, either.

It's a cute idea, but it really holds virtually no promise. Sorry...

Bob Zale
PowerBASIC Inc.

"Cute"? Did you really say "cute"?

As for M type comments, I think you sell us short, Bob. First going in, experienced PB'ers will know the purpose of the forum and that snarky posting is out of order, just as we know DOS or OOP topics are out of order in the PBWin forum. (And the forum could be moderated so that a less than tender response could be deleted so said posts ae deleted by the moderator). Actually these forums are exceptionally well self moderated and to expect a Newby or DDT Only to be any different, at least without trying it, is well .... unreasonable. I'd bet (albeit at long odds though) even Friend M could restrain himself.

After all, with VBulletin software, it's not like it's a big deal to set up, or remove if it turns out to be a vexation.

=================================
The first half of our lives
is ruined by our parents,
the second half by our children.
Clarence Darrow (1857-1938)
=================================

[Michael Mattias]

Not to be too snarky here, but I was a regular contributor to the "Beginners BBS" when that was in business, and never got anything but "thank yous"

(For the younger folks: Bulletin Board Services were what you went "on-line" to before there was such a thing as an easily-accessible Internet)

[Chris Holbrook]

...the forum could be moderated so that a less than tender response could be deleted so said posts ae deleted by the moderator)....After all, with VBulletin software, it's not like it's a big deal to set up, or remove if it turns out to be a vexation.

So all you need, in the absence of support from Mr Zale, is a little time and a passionate belief in what you are doing.

Good luck with the new forum Gösta!

[Bern Ertl]

Not to be too snarky here, but I was a regular contributor to the "Beginners BBS" when that was in business, and never got anything but "thank yous"

Hey! I'm pretty sure we all gave you some grief as well!

[Joe Byrne]

just as we know DOS or OOP topics are out of order in the PBWin forum.

Yea, right. Just count the number of 'discussions' posted in the source code only forum.

When I was young, I learned a great lesson. Never play a game against someone who isn't better than you. Your skills go down hill fast when you are the better player. You always want to compete against a stronger player. Same thing goes for programming, actually, just about anything IMO.

As for the "fear factor", my advice would be "get over it". I don't think we're a bunch of children here that need a nanny to make sure the big bad bully doesn't do us emotional harm. We are, at least mostly, adults. If you want something, ask, if you're too afraid to ask, then you don't really want an answer to begin with.

We are all "noobs" at some point. I know nothing about OOP, others know nothing about Web apps, still others nothing about PB in general. How do you propose any of us learn anything? These forums are here as a tool. If someone chooses not to avail themselves of it, that is their choice. If their pride is bigger than their desire to learn, then nothing anybody says or does here is going to change that.

These forums have the ability to "ignore" certain individuals so you don't have to read their posts. If you are so concerned about "harshness", then put those people on your ignore list. In the end though, you are only hurting yourself.

A wise person once told me these words to live by. "Never expend more energy into helping someone than they will for themselves". If you're not motivated enough to get over a few prideful issues and ask questions, then nobody here should be more motivated to supply answers.

Is it just me, or do others thing this is one of most silliest discussions ever done here?

Maybe there should be a rule that if you're under 13, chronologically or emotionally, you can't join the forum.

[Chris Holbrook]

Maybe there should be a rule that if you're under 13, chronologically or emotionally, you can't join the forum.

You're a hard man, Mr Byrne. Some of us are here because we are emotionally under 13.

[Joe Byrne]

You're a hard man, Mr Byrne. Some of us are here because we are emotionally under 13.

ouch....

[Michael Mattias]

A lesson it tool me an overly-long time to learn:

In electronic fora, there are no such things as body language and inflection. Therefore, take as little as possible literally and less than that personally.

MCM

[Gösta H. Lovgren-2]

Is it just me, or do others thing this is one of most silliest discussions ever done here?

And yet you participate.

========================================
"A lie is terminological inexactitude."
Churchill
========================================

[Joe Byrne]

And yet you participate.

Point?

[Barry Marks]

I have three dollars says I'm not the only one who learned how to swim because his dad simply threw him into the deep end of the pool and said, "Thou Shalt Now Swim"...

Of course you're right and of course the poster who said gentle handling is needed for beginners is right. When a newbie asks a question and you beat him up and others hold his hand he gets it both ways. What could be better?

One of the problems a programmer faces is that he's given a task; often a difficult one; and usually a deadline and then he's expected to create something that works. That's a lot of pressure. The kind of pressure newbies get in this forum is much gentler. It's part of the learning experience, I think.

The exception, for me, is when it's rude pressure. I'm averse to rudeness in any kind of forum. That chases the good people away.

Barry