Which To Purchase

[Dwayne Powell]

This is my first post here. I've been a member for a while, but never have written anything. I've been writing programs of various types since 1988, and have used quite a few languages and platforms.

Quite a few years ago, more than I want to count, I purchased PB-DOS 3.2. I still have all the materials and media.

I've mostly used Microsoft products as this is what I learned with in college. I used VB6 the most. I have issues with their .Net family. They seem to be "interpreted". What I mean is, every line of code that executes requires a jumping-out to .Net Framework. In simpler terms, the more code you have, the slower an app will run, regardless of efficiency.

Data types also have been an issue for me. Historically, if you wanted to work with very large numbers, the "Double" data type was all you had. There were no large integer types. .Net has UInt64 and ULong, unsigned 64-bit integers. If memory serves, PB has/had a "Quad" type. It was also 64-bit, but signed. Why all the commentary about type sizes? One of my programming hobbies is prime numbers. Sometimes, very large.

Currently, PB has two flavors, console and Windows. Console requires setting aside everyone one knows about form applications and falling back on the DOS Basic style of writing. One thing I like about VB is how the form designer is fully integrated into the coding area. Click on an object in the form view, and the code dialog appears for the object. I do not know if PB Windows does this or not. I never had to learn how to write code to create a form, and am not about to start now.

The bottom line, I am not happy with Microsoft's current offerings and am looking for alternatives. If PB Windows can do the things I have described then I will look at it very hard. A demo would be nice, but I know that is not an option here.

Thank you.

[Iain Johnstone]

PB 9 with PBForms and a moneyback guarantee - you can't go wrong. Not to mention the support from this board (second to none) and the continual development behind the scenes. Go for it!

Iain Johnstone

[Paul Squires]

One thing I like about VB is how the form designer is fully integrated into the coding area. Click on an object in the form view, and the code dialog appears for the object.

You may want to experiment with the FireFly Visual Designer at http://www.planetsquires.com

Oh, and Version 3 is finally almost ready to be released as well.

[Brice Manuel]

FireFly sounds like what you want. It makes the migration easy and painless for VBers. Paul, the guy behind FireFly, is just as top-notch as his product.

[John Strasser]

Don't knock PBCC either...

Even though I have both, and have used VB, VC, Delphi, Borland C++Builder, etc for years I find that my current programmings is mostly PBCC and php.

with PBWin taking a distant 3rd (though I've got a win project starting soon).

JS

[Michael Mattias]

>One thing I like about VB is how the form designer
> is fully integrated into the coding area.

PB/Windows does not include an integral form designer, so you will have to forget all your VB stuff anyway. PB/Forms (licensed separately) produces code which does the VERY basic screen and control creation, but you have to code all the actions (eg "on_click") yourself anyway. (And you don't use "on_click", you use WM_COMMAND message processing).


MCM

[Barry Marks]

PB for Windows has DDT, a non-visual framework which lets you create a form with a single line of code and add controls with a single line each. Of course it's not really quite that simple, but almost.

I also have little GUI programming experience and I know little about Windows programming. I only do lightweight playing around with programming since I retired so I'm not motivated to learn a lot about it.

I've tried PB for Windows by itself and I've bought most of the visual designers for PB and tried them. For simple stuff, which is all I do, I find PB by itself to be the easy way to do things. If I was going to do something larger I'd probably get serious about learning Firefly or EZGUI, both of which I have and both of which seem like excellent tools. But they make simple programming more complicated. I think they need complex problems to solve before they show their worth.

I also tried some of the competitor's Basics, most of which do have built-in form designers, and I found it easier to use them without their form designers, again, just for simple programs.

Barry

[Mike Doty]

In addition:
PB9 creates DLL's that can be called from VB6.

[Mark Hunter]

If you’re coming from PBDOS, QuickBasic or other DOS compiler, buy either PBCC or PBWin, depending how big a jump you want to make, smaller or huge.

If you’re coming from Visual Basic, buy PBWin.

Almost all the difference between DOS and Windows compilers is in how you code input/output. Computation instructions in Windows compilers are either the same as in DOS compilers, the same with enhanced features, or almost the same. And even with input/output they are frequently nearly the same, but different enough that there is much to learn – in programming it’s always “close but no cigar.”

Two things VB does very nicely:
1. The code for form layout (buttons, sizes, position, etc) – usually fixed when the program runs – is automatically separate from the “working code” behind it. VB automatically places the “form code” in a separate file and you can just ignore it, even as you view the form. (You can add such “form layout” code to the “working code” so you do have total contral at run time as well if you want it.)
2. You code for different events simply by naming subroutines. For example: Sub ButtonName_Click, Sub Form_KeyPress. The first subroutine gets called when ButtonName is clicked, the second when a key is pressed when Form has the focus.

What about PBWin? Though expert in VB and PBCC (except the Internet stuff) I haven’t used PBWin. As far as I can tell PBWin doesn’t do either of the above. You can simulate the separation mentioned in (1) by judicious use of include files, though it’s not automatic. (2) is out entirely, you must write a “message” handler. (On the other hand I gather that gives you finer control over handling events.) I’m sure it’s not hard, but it’s different.

Another difference between VB and at least PBCC is the way you specify the scope of variables. In VB if you place Dim outside the subroutines, that makes it global, if you place it inside a subroutine it is local, and this whether it’s a simple variable or an array). In PBCC (at least) you must use the keyword Global instead of Dim for globals, and for arrays you must in addition put a Dim for it in a subroutine, doesn’t matter which.

Maybe one day PowerBasic, Inc will offer a more or less VB knockoff, with the famous faster/smaller executable (not to mention that you can’t decompile so easily). Seems I remember reading some people tried to write a sort of shell program that looks like VB while using PBCC as the “engine”, but it didn’t work out.

[Michael Mattias]

>Maybe one day PowerBasic, Inc will offer a more or less VB knockoff

Say What?

While I have had a few differences of opinion about what their products 'should' be in the nearly twenty years I have been a PowerBASIC customer, those products have never been a 'knockoff' of anything; and as best I can determine from out here in the Cheese Capital of the World, they never will be..... for which I am both grateful and appreciative.

MCM

[Gösta H. Lovgren-2]

Dwayne, I had a brief experience with VB (far too confining), a fling with C (too obscure), a brush with Assembly (tedious) and fairly long experience with various DOS Basics (no Windows capability).

What it boils down to for me is PBWin gives the maximum amount of control over what's happening with the most flexibility with the least amount of confusion in a Windows world. There is, however, a learning curve but for someone with decent programming experience in various languages, it should be very short. The biggest hurdle, imo, is just how much freedom and latitude PBWin affords and it takes a bit to get used to.

There are several Form creation programs available for PBWin that are very good to help get started if one is so inclined but I like to freedom to Roll MY Own (I found them to be confining as well).

In any case the best thing about PBWin are these Forums. Lots of help here for any skill level. (Though I have long wished there was a DDT only Forum where newbies especially could post without the cryptic API guys sticking their beaks in, confusing things even more for beginners.)

===================================
Speech is human,
silence is divine,
yet also brutish and dead:
therefore we must learn both arts.
Thomas Carlyle
===================================

[Paul Squires]

without the cryptic API guys sticking their beaks in.

[Brice Manuel]

Maybe one day PowerBasic, Inc will offer a more or less VB knockoff

Please don't speak such blasphemy against Bob.

[Mark Hunter]

Very poor choice of words, “knockoff”!

I do like – and obviously a lot of people like – the way VB works as far as the basics (I mentioned two things in my last post). The fact that there was an effort, even though unsuccessful, to make a “better VB” by wrapping a sort of meta-compiler around PBCC (or was it PBWin?) shows that VB’s methods are still popular – and that PB’s executables are better than VB’s. I’m sure anything PowerBasic, Inc might do in this line would be superior to VB, not a “knockoff”.

I work with engineers and VB 6 is still a mainstay. They use it for computations, working with simple sequential files, graphics. Not the internet or database features.

Microsoft abandoned QuickBasic and left the market to other products, PBDOS being the best. Microsoft abandoned VisualBasic and – unless you consider NET is VB 7 (rather a stretch) – left the market to PBWin. But PBWin is not as much to VB as BPDOS is to QB.

It’s not all or nothing. The two VB features I mentioned in my last post might be incorporated in PBWin. To repeat, at this point I haven’t used it (I bought a copy during the recent sale). Maybe I’ll change my tune when I become expert. I plan to do my next major application in PBWin – even though I have VB 6.

[Mike Doty]

I thread, subclass and transfer over the internet by calling a PB/DLL
from VB6. This also gives the ability to use COM. Write the code
once, put it into the DLL and move on. No continual recompiling the
same code or having to distribute it many times.

[John R. Heathcote]

Dwayne,

You really can't go wrong with PB no matter which version you choose. I have both PBWin and PBCC so I'm covered no matter which way I decide to program, and BTW, PB products are reasonably priced.

If you want demos look at the forums, there is a lot to choose from, and if you don't understand a Windows concept, just post your question here and you will be surprised how soon you will receive an answer. There is a large knowledgeable group of people who participate regularly in these forums, a great resource. Another source of demos is POFFS.

I have used AutoCAD, Excel and MOSS(a 3D surface modeling program) under a VB6 umbrella for civil engineering calculations and plan preparation using VB6's capability to access objects. Now that PB supports classes makes it just that much easier to incorporate and use objects from other softwares at PB speed of execution. As easy as it was to interface with the three applications I mentioned earlier using VB6, I was disappointed with the overall performance of VB, it tended to be very slow. That being said I was able to calculate and generate between 60%-70% of my project plan sheets in about 20 minutes using VB. I would estimate I could cut that time between 25% - 50% using PB.

I can say that if you do want to emulate the VB object/event model one way to do it is through the combination of PB objects and subclassing PB controls. While there are inevitable differences between VB and PB they are not insurmountable and whatever you can do with VB you can do with PB.

[Jim Dunn]

Here's what would be nice: A VB6 clone, that was free/opensource, which would excite/draw all VB6 programmers from around the world (there are millions of them) who would then have a REASON to buy PBWIN!!!!!!!!!

Just my 2c worth -- go ahead and flame if you must.

Jim

---snip---

>Maybe one day PowerBasic, Inc will offer a more or less VB knockoff

Say What?

While I have had a few differences of opinion about what their products 'should' be in the nearly twenty years I have been a PowerBASIC customer, those products have never been a 'knockoff' of anything; and as best I can determine from out here in the Cheese Capital of the World, they never will be..... for which I am both grateful and appreciative.

MCM

[Jim Dunn]

Mike,

Would you ever consider sharing a source-code example of your PBWIN DLL and VB6 programs??

Thx! : )
Jim

I thread, subclass and transfer over the internet by calling a PB/DLL
from VB6. This also gives the ability to use COM. Write the code
once, put it into the DLL and move on. No continual recompiling the
same code or having to distribute it many times.

[Mike Doty]

Not until after lunch.

[Mike Doty]

Not sure if I posted a demo for this. I will checkout this afternoon.

'-------  VB CODE ----------------------------------------------------------
Public Const GWL_WNDPROC = (-4) ' This we recognize as the constant for accessing the callback address
Public lngOldProc As Long ' This is for preserving the old address of the callback
 
 
 
 
 
 
Public g As Globals
'Public gSystemMilliseconds As Long
Public gAction As Long    'trying to do things in background.dll
'SetTimer is paused by SLEEP and TCP CONNECT
'To overcome this, writing TIMER as a THREAD
Declare Sub background Lib "background.dll" Alias "BACKGROUND" (sQuestion As String, sAnswer As String)
Declare Sub BACKGROUND2 Lib "background.dll" (sQuestion As String, sAnswer As String)
Declare Sub DTIMER Lib "background.dll" (Action As Long)
Declare Sub SLEEPER Lib "background.dll" (Milliseconds As Long)
Declare Sub TESTSENDMESSAGE Lib "background.dll" (hControl As Long)
Declare Sub TESTCALLBACK Lib "background.dll" ()
Declare Sub STARTSUBCLASS Lib "background.dll" (hControl As Long)
Declare Function ENDSUBCLASS Lib "background.dll" () As Long
Declare Function GETTHREADCOUNT Lib "background.dll" () As Long
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Private Sub Form_Load()
  ChDir App.Path
  Command1.Caption = "Test"
  STARTSUBCLASS List1.hWnd
End Sub
Private Sub Form_QueryUnload(CANCEL As Integer, UnloadMode As Integer)
  ENDSUBCLASS 'required if subclassing
End Sub
Sub DisplayThreadCount()
  Dim count As Long
  count = GETTHREADCOUNT - 1
  If count Then
    Me.Label1.Caption = "Extra threads" + Str$(GETTHREADCOUNT - 1)
  Else
    Me.Label1.Caption = "No extra threads"
  End If
End Sub
Sub DisplayThreadCount()
  Dim count As Long
  count = GETTHREADCOUNT - 1
  If count Then
    Me.Label1.Caption = "Extra threads" + Str$(GETTHREADCOUNT - 1)
  Else
    Me.Label1.Caption = "No extra threads"
  End If
End Sub
 
'----------------------------   End of VB code ----------------------------------
 
'------------------------------  PB  CODE  --------------------------------------
'This all compiles into background.dll
Type Globals
  SplashTimeOut As Long
  SystemMilliseconds As Long
  Connected     As Long
  ServerName    As String
  PortNumber    As Long
  Busy          As Long
End Type
#COMPILE DLL "background.dll"  'Test while working in PB
#COMPILE EXE "background.exe"  'test your code while using PB
#INCLUDE "win32api.inc"
'------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
REM Remark line below to test this code as an EXE
'DECLARE SUB BACKGROUND LIB "background.dll"(sQuestion AS STRING, sAnswer AS STRING)
'-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
%CallBack = &H300
GLOBAL gControl    AS LONG
GLOBAL gPrevWndProc AS LONG
GLOBAL gCS AS CRITICAL_SECTION
GLOBAL g_Question$, g_Answer$,gCounter AS DWORD
GLOBAL gBeep AS LONG, gAction AS LONG
'--------------------------------------------------------------
SUB Background(sQuestion AS STRING, sAnswer AS STRING) EXPORT
  LOCAL hThread, Result AS DWORD
  EnterCritical
  INCR gCounter               'lets be sure they are coming back correctly
  g_Question = sQuestion
  LeaveCritical
  THREAD CREATE BackGroundThread(hThread) TO hThread
  IF hThread = 0 THEN ? "Unable to create thread":EXIT SUB
  SLEEP 50
  DO
    DIALOG DOEVENTS 0                'allow others time
    THREAD STATUS hThread TO Result  'get thread status
  LOOP WHILE Result = &H103          'loop while running
  THREAD CLOSE hThread TO Result     'close thread handle
  IF Result = 0 THEN ? "Error closing thread"
  EnterCritical
  sAnswer = g_Answer                 'return answer from background thread
  LeaveCritical
END SUB
SUB Background2(sQuestion AS STRING, sAnswer AS STRING) EXPORT
  'NO SLEEP or WAIT in this function (this in first thrread)
  LOCAL hThread, Result AS DWORD
  EnterCritical
  INCR gCounter               'lets be sure they are coming back correctly
  g_Question = sQuestion
  LeaveCritical
  THREAD CREATE BackGroundThread2(hThread) TO hThread
  IF hThread = 0 THEN ? "Unable to create thread":EXIT SUB
  SLEEP 50  'put back, later
  DO
    DIALOG DOEVENTS 0                'allow others time
    THREAD STATUS hThread TO Result  'get thread status
  LOOP WHILE Result = &H103          'loop while running
  THREAD CLOSE hThread TO Result     'close thread handle
  IF Result = 0 THEN ? "Error closing thread"
  EnterCritical
  sAnswer = g_Answer                 'return answer from background thread
  LeaveCritical
END SUB
'--------------------------------------------------------------
THREAD FUNCTION BackGroundThread(BYVAL dummy AS DWORD) AS DWORD
  LOCAL sQuestion AS STRING
  LOCAL sAnswer   AS STRING
EnterCritical
  sQuestion = g_Question
  SELECT CASE sQuestion
    CASE ""
      sAnswer = "No question, gCounter" + STR$(gCounter)
    CASE ELSE
      sAnswer = TIME$ + " " + sQuestion + " gcounter" + STR$(gCounter)
   END SELECT
  g_Answer = sAnswer
LeaveCritical
  'MSGBOX "Stuck here in BackgroundThread 1"
END FUNCTION
'--------------------------------------------------------------
THREAD FUNCTION BackGroundThread2(BYVAL dummy AS DWORD) AS DWORD
  LOCAL sQuestion AS STRING
  LOCAL sAnswer   AS STRING
EnterCritical
  sQuestion = g_Question
  SELECT CASE sQuestion
    CASE ""
      sAnswer = "No question, gCounter" + STR$(gCounter)
    CASE ELSE
      sAnswer = TIME$ + " " + sQuestion + " gcounter" + STR$(gCounter)
   END SELECT
  g_Answer = sAnswer
LeaveCritical
  'MSGBOX "Stuck here in BackgroundThread 2"
END FUNCTION
'--------------------------------------------------------------
FUNCTION GetThreadCount EXPORT AS LONG 'VB uses to not end until threadcount = 1
  FUNCTION = THREADCOUNT
END FUNCTION
'~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
SUB EnterCritical
   EnterCriticalSection gCS
END SUB
'--------------------------------------------------------------
SUB LeaveCritical
   LeaveCriticalSection gCS
END SUB
 
FUNCTION LIBMAIN(BYVAL hInstance AS DWORD, _
                 BYVAL lReason AS LONG,    _
                 BYVAL lReserved AS LONG) AS LONG
  SELECT CASE AS LONG lReason
    CASE %DLL_PROCESS_ATTACH
      '? "DLL attached"
      InitializeCriticalSection gCS
      LIBMAIN = 1
      EXIT FUNCTION
    CASE %DLL_PROCESS_DETACH
      '? "This DLL is about to be unloaded
       DeleteCriticalSection gCS
          EXIT FUNCTION
    CASE %DLL_THREAD_ATTACH
      '? "A [New] thread is starting (see THREADID)
      EXIT FUNCTION
    CASE %DLL_THREAD_DETACH
      '? "This thread is closing (see THREADID)
      EXIT FUNCTION
  END SELECT
  LIBMAIN = 0
  ? "Failure to initialize the DLL!
END FUNCTION
 
SUB DTimer(Action AS LONG) EXPORT    'Integer corresponds to boolean in VB6
  EnterCritical
  gAction = Action
 
  LOCAL hThread AS LONG
  SELECT CASE Action
    CASE 0
        gBeep = 0       'threads will finish
    CASE 1,3
      gBeep = 1
      gAction = Action
      THREAD CREATE dTimerThread(hThread) TO hThread
      IF hThread = 0 THEN ? "Unable to create thread":EXIT SUB
      THREAD CLOSE hThread TO hThread
      SLEEP 50
      REM ? "ThreadCount" + STR$(ThreadCount)
    CASE 1000,2000,3000
      sleeper Action
    CASE ELSE
      gAction = Action
  END SELECT
  LeaveCritical
END SUB
 
THREAD FUNCTION DTimerThread(BYVAL y AS DWORD) AS DWORD
  'Called while within a critical section
  DIM Action AS LONG
  Action = gAction       'assign global action savely to action
  gAction = 0            'unassign action quickly
  DO
    SELECT CASE Action   'use action to do whatever
      CASE 3
         EXIT LOOP
    END SELECT
    SLEEP 100
  LOOP WHILE gBeep
  IF Action = 3 THEN
    ? "CASE 3. Click to end this extra thread",%MB_SYSTEMMODAL
  END IF
END FUNCTION
 
FUNCTION Sleeper (milliseconds AS DWORD) EXPORT AS LONG   'runs in another thread
  LOCAL hThread AS DWORD
  LOCAL result  AS DWORD
  LOCAL ExitCode AS DWORD
  'IF LEN(COMMAND$) THEN                'override passed value
  '  milliseconds = ABS(VAL(COMMAND$))  'use value in COMMAND$
  'END IF
  THREAD CREATE TimedMessageBoxThread(milliseconds) TO hThread
  IF hThread THEN
    SLEEP 50
    'WaitForSingleObject hThread, milliseconds
    'THREAD SUSPEND hThread TO lResult&         'stops in tracks, not good
    REM result = TerminateThread(hThread, exitCode) 'never, ever use this
    THREAD CLOSE hThread TO Result
  END IF
 END FUNCTION
THREAD FUNCTION TimedMessageBoxThread(BYVAL milliseconds AS DWORD) AS LONG
   BEEP
   SLEEP milliseconds
   BEEP
'#IF %DEF(%PB_CC32)
'  ? "Press ENTER to continue or WAIT" + STR$(milliseconds) + " milliseconds"
'  WAITKEY$
'#ELSE
'  ? "Click OK to continue or WAIT" + STR$(milliseconds) + " milliseconds"
'#ENDIF
END FUNCTION
SUB CallVb EXPORT
  STATIC counter AS LONG
  LOCAL s AS STRING        'use STRPTR with dynamic strings
  LOCAL lResult   AS LONG
  LOCAL dwHandle  AS DWORD
  LOCAL dwMsg     AS DWORD
  LOCAL dwParam   AS DWORD
  LOCAL lParam    AS LONG
  dwHandle = gControl        'listbox
  'dwMsg    = &H300
  '%LB_ADDSTRING          = &H180
  '%LB_INSERTSTRING       = &H181
  dwMsg = %LB_ADDSTRING   'listbox addstring
  INCR counter
  s = "TEST COMPLETE" + STR$(counter)
  dwParam = LEN(s)      'length
  lParam = STRPTR(s)    'address
  lResult = SendMessage(dwHandle,dwMsg,dwParam,lParam)
  'msgbox s + " " + str$(dwHandle)
END SUB
 
FUNCTION Peeker(Address AS DWORD, Characters AS LONG) EXPORT AS STRING
  FUNCTION  = PEEK$(address???, characters)
END FUNCTION
SUB StartSubClass(h AS LONG) EXPORT
  gControl = h
  gPrevWndProc = SetWindowLong(h, %GWL_WNDPROC, CODEPTR (pMyWindowProc))
END SUB
SUB EndSubClass() EXPORT
  'Form1.List1.Clear
  'Form1.List1.AddItem "SetWindowLong using glPrevWndProc" + Str$(glPrevWndProc)
  CALL SetWindowLong(gControl, %GWL_WNDPROC, gPrevWndProc)  'restore old address
  gControl = 0
END SUB
FUNCTION pMyWindowProc(BYVAL gControl AS LONG, BYVAL uMsg AS LONG, _
    BYVAL wParam AS LONG, BYVAL lParam AS LONG) AS LONG
  IF uMsg = &H300 THEN
    DIM s AS STRING
    s = PEEKER(lParam, wParam)
    EXIT FUNCTION
  END IF
pMyWindowProc = CallWindowProc(gPrevWndProc, gControl, uMsg, wParam, lParam)
END FUNCTION
SUB TestCallBack EXPORT
  IF gControl = 0 THEN ? "Subclass is not on":EXIT SUB
  STATIC Counter AS LONG
  LOCAL s       AS STRING
  LOCAL wParam  AS DWORD
  LOCAL lParam  AS LONG
  INCR Counter
  s = "Callback string" + STR$(Counter)
  wParam = LEN(s)
  lParam = STRPTR(s)
  SendMessage gControl,%Callback,wParam,lParam 'let callback handle it
END SUB
SUB TestSendMessage(hControl AS LONG) EXPORT
  IF hControl = 0 THEN ? "Need handle":EXIT SUB
  STATIC Counter AS LONG
  LOCAL s AS STRING
  INCR Counter
  s = "SendMessage direct to control" + STR$(counter)
  SendMessage(hControl,%LB_ADDSTRING,%NULL,STRPTR(s))
END SUB