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    #21

    Code:
        [b]Local[/b] oRec    [b]As[/b] [b]Dispatch[/b] 
        [b]Local[/b] v       [b]As[/b] [b]Variant[/b] 
        [b]Local[/b] nFields [b]As[/b] [b]Long[/b] 
        [b]Local[/b] nField  [b]As[/b] [b]Long[/b] 
     
        [i]' Open table.[/i] 
        [b]If[/b] VD_ADO_Recordset_Open( $DB_CONN, "SELECT * FROM Table1", oRec ) [b]Then[/b] 
            [i]' oRec is set [/i] 
        [b]End[/b] [b]If[/b] 
     
        [i]' Test successful recordset.[/i] 
        [b]If[/b] [b]ObjResult[/b] [b]Then[/b] 
            [b]MsgBox[/b] "Could not open database and/or table (" & [b]Format$[/b]( [b]ObjResult[/b] ) & ")", %MB_TASKMODAL, [b]VD_App.Title[/b] 
            VD_ADO_Recordset_Close( oRec ) 
            [b]Exit[/b] [b]Function[/b] 
        [b]End[/b] [b]If[/b] 
     
        [i]' Enumerate fields.[/i] 
        nFields = VD_ADO_Recordset_Fields_GetCount( oRec ) 
        [b]For[/b] nField = 0 [b]To[/b] nFields - 1 
            [b]VD_Debug_Print[/b] "Field: " & [b]Format$[/b]( nField ) & ", " & VD_ADO_Recordset_Field_GetName( oRec, nField ) 
        [b]Next[/b] nField 
     
        [i]' Add a record to Table.[/i] 
        [i]' Table should contain 3 fields:[/i] 
        [i]' 1) ID as long counterfield (auto)[/i] 
        [i]' 2) Text[/i] 
        [i]' 3) Text[/i] 
        VD_ADO_Recordset_AddNew( oRec ) 
     
        [i]' Set's fields data now, note that fields can also be valid[/i] 
            fieldnames$ 
        [i]' instead of the numbers being used here.[/i] 
        VD_ADO_Recordset_FieldVariant( oRec, 1, [b]Date$[/b] ) 
        VD_ADO_Recordset_FieldVariant( oRec, 2, [b]Time$[/b] ) 
        VD_ADO_Recordset_Update( oRec ) 
     
        [i]' Jump to last record.[/i] 
        VD_ADO_Recordset_MoveLast( oRec ) 
     
        [i]' Obtain a field again.[/i] 
        [b]MsgBox[/b] VD_ADO_Recordset_GetFieldStr( oRec, 2 ), %MB_TASKMODAL, [b]VD_App.Title[/b] 
     
        [i]' Close recordset.[/i] 
        VD_ADO_Recordset_Close( oRec )
    hellobasic

    Comment


      #22
      Uhm... Again of the same samples!
      That's what I meant, anyway:

      Oracle - Developing Web Services with Oracle JDeveloper

      Bye!
      -- The universe tends toward maximum irony. Don't push it.

      File Extension Seeker - Metasearch engine for file extensions / file types
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      Comment


        #23
        Joe,

        I think you misconstrued my comments about a downloadable demo.

        I wasn't saying they have no value.

        What i was saying is that those who do offer a downloadable demo, don't always see that convert to orders. The potential customer may like what they see, but then they always come back to the price of the tool and then they have to justify the purchase.

        This discussion is about the price of a tool, Edwins PwrDev in particular.
        The only reason a developer asks such a question is because they wonder if the tool is priced too much, so potential customers shy away from it.

        Its easy to download a demo and say, "I like that", but it is a big difference to actually pay for a product, especially when it is not low cost. After you get over $100, most people think twice before purchasing.

        Now what makes things more difficult is, lets' say you offer a downloadable demo and so does other developers, and their product is $100 and yours is $150 and at first glance both products seem similiar. Potential customers may opt for the lower priced tool, not realizing that there is a lot more difference between the products than meets the eye.

        What happens is a developer may simply lower the price, and then the other guy does too and so on, unitl both developers are selling their software way below their value and no profits are made.

        More is needed in marketing the software. More information about what really makes the products different.

        Now as far as downloadable demos, I have made a choice many don't like and I understand that. I weighed different concerns, one being protecting the software (since my products will have hundreds, possibly thousands of runtimes floating around). My runtime DLL will distributed by every single customer I have and some of them sell a lot of software. This means my runtime ends up on possibly thousands of end user PC's. I have concerns about protecting the softwares runtimes from improper use and I chose to keep some data out of public hands.

        This is a choice I have to live with and I don't think in my case it has impacted sales signficantly. But thats my risk.

        Edwin may do better to offer a downloadable demo. Thats his choice.

        Downloads do help sales, that I am sure of.
        Chris Boss
        Computer Workshop
        Developer of "EZGUI"
        http://cwsof.com
        http://twitter.com/EZGUIProGuy

        Comment


          #24
          One more observation.

          Selling programming tools is a lot different than many other types of software. The reason is the level of complexity and the need of commitment on the part of customers.

          I learned this awhile back.

          The best customers turn out to be the ones who make a commitment to using a tool. They take the time to learn how to use it. They are willing to learn. In the long run, they will appreciate the product more. They are more likely to upgrade!

          In my experience new customers go through the following pattern:

          (1) In a days time they experiment enough with the product to make an initial impression (good or bad). They won't be doing much with it on the first day, they just get an impression. At times this impression will not be their final judgement of the product after long term use.

          (2) For a few weeks they start digging into the product learning as they go. Most will find that there is a lot more to learn that initially thought.

          (3) At this point, some will give up on the product and actually shelf it.
          The ones who feel more of a commitment to learning the product, will hang in there and ask lots of questions.

          (4) At some point those who are more committed, will have that "lightbulb" go off in their head. They get the sense of it all. It starts to make sense. They start putting more effort into learning the product and then start becoming productive with it.

          (5) This is where is gets fun! Those who are more committed start enjoying the experience. They become long term customers who likely will upgrade.

          What is interesting, is that when a product is sold too low in price, you may get more customers who stop at step 3. They shelf the product. This is bad for the seller, because they don't become long term customers. They don't help by word of mouth advertiing.

          I found that as I increased the price of the product in each new version, my customer base become more long term and they became more committed to learning how to use the product.
          Chris Boss
          Computer Workshop
          Developer of "EZGUI"
          http://cwsof.com
          http://twitter.com/EZGUIProGuy

          Comment


            #25
            The potential customer may like what they see, but then they always come back to the price of the tool and then they have to justify the purchase
            Au Contraire mon ami.... it does not come down to price, it comes down to value.

            MCM
            Michael Mattias
            Tal Systems (retired)
            Port Washington WI USA
            [email protected]
            http://www.talsystems.com

            Comment


              #26
              Yes but that value is not determined by the tool directly.
              It's a combination of..

              Though i have decided to see if i can improve it some more so the more novice user can use it more easily as well.
              The website has the remark for intermediate and professional user.
              Maybe i can change that overtime.
              hellobasic

              Comment


                #27
                Edwin,

                I probably fall in the catagory of a potential customer. When you announced the price drop it actually caused me to visit your website for a few minutes and think about a purchase.

                What I personally find interesting about your product is its ability to interface in some way with .NET stuff using PB. I know I have bad mouthed .NET quite a bit in this forum, but nontheless a point may come in my work at some time where I may have to deal with it. When that point comes I'll likely buy your product.

                So, the thing that actually went through my mind when I saw I could save some money by purchasing PwrDev now, is that I'm so busy with so many other things right now, I wouldn't really have a lot of time to invest in learning it. So it would probably just be lying in a folder somewhere till I got time for it in mayber 6 months or a year. And by that time I'd probably need an upgrade. So, I figurred the $50 bucks or so I'd save really wasn't a big deal, and that I'd be better off just waiting till I have the time to devote to learning to use the product. So in closing I think your original price (which is more than competitive with the other code designers) is good.

                Fred
                Fred
                "fharris"+Chr$(64)+"evenlink"+Chr$(46)+"com"

                Comment


                  #28
                  Fwiw,
                  When it comes to programming tools, or anything where there is going to be a real learning curve (beyond an hour) demos are of limited usefullness.

                  Because by the time I've invested enough into learning how to use the demo, it's too late.

                  Might I suggest the following...

                  1. Have downloadable sample programs produced with your tool on your website.

                  2. Have a flash or (preferably) downloadable movie of that program being written (use a tool such as camtasia) - that will show us in "real time" what is involved. They don't have to be fancy - just demonstrate simple stuff - menues, basic form creation, talking to odbc, neat custom controls, etc. More than 10 minutes and it's too long. The goal here is to show how easy it is to do something.

                  3. Make sure that you collect the valid email address of the person downloading your samples/movies. Write your own or use a service like http://www.goldbar.net (not an affiliate link, though I am an affiliate - great service for autoresponders, shopping carts, and stuff - I highly reccomend them)

                  4. Once a person has downloaded (and presumably watched) the movies you can send them an email (you did capture their email address into an autoresponder, didn't you?) or just send them to another webpage offering them a trial version for 10% of the full cost. BUT, this trial version will *create programs* that only run for a limited number or times, or have to talk with your webserver to to authenticate for a certain amount of time, or something like that. Maybe you can't create dlls with it, only exes which will only run for 10 minutes at a time, or only run once. You all know how to do that already.

                  5. Then, when I like your product, you credit that 10% towards the final sale. Heck, you could even increases your prices 20% from where they are now, I pay 10% of the new price for the demo, and then you "double" that 10% towards the final purchase price - leaving you right where you are now.

                  6. The benefit for the potential end user, is if they don't like the tool, they're only out what - $10 or $20. That's a no-brainer. It's zero risk for them. How many people go to a movie and don't like it at the end. And then they're stuck. In YOUR case - recognizing that good programming tools are worth (and cost) SO much more than a movie, you want them to avoid that "stuck and gipped" feeling. So now you're their ally. NOT someone looking to make a quick sale and run.

                  6a. The goal of your website (playing off something that chris said in #17) is to get them to:
                  a) realize that they don't need your tool - because you're NOT for everyone (Right?) - you're a specialist in what you do
                  b) download the samples (giving you their email address and permission to contact them in the future)

                  And THATS IT!!!

                  If they buy immediately GREAT (that's the kind of "failure" you don't mind dealing with <smile>).

                  The goal of the samples and movies is to "sell" (and filter away people who don't need it) the trial. THAT'S IT.

                  The goal of the trial is to sell the full version.

                  Hope this helps. . .

                  JS
                  John,
                  --------------------------------
                  John Strasser
                  Phone: 480 - 273 - 8798

                  Comment


                    #29
                    Another take on the pricing of the PowerBASIC GUI designers is that I doubt actual sales come anywhere close to compensating the developers adequately for their time invested. I certainly don't know this, but I feel it is likely so. And so it appears too that several of the developers at least have other sources of employment/income. I imagine that if the price charged for the designers adequately represented development costs, the prices would be much higher.

                    When I was moving to PowerBASIC from the VB world I was surprised how relatively inexpensive things were here. For example, back in the nineties custom grid controls, calendar controls, etc., seemed to be selling there in the $500 range. Here, you couldn't spend over a hundred if you wanted to.

                    I'm very sympathetic to all the 3rd party tool designers. For the past several weekends I've been working for free on a work project that is very important to me. So my ultimate reward will be other than monetary.
                    Fred
                    "fharris"+Chr$(64)+"evenlink"+Chr$(46)+"com"

                    Comment


                      #30
                      Make sure that you collect the valid email address of the person downloading your samples/movies
                      Not practical. Personally, I don't want a bunch of emails (nor phone calls) from companies that want to sell me something. If I like what I've seen (from a demo, just looking around, or whatever) I'll go back to them I don't need nor want them hounding me. So it I'm 'forced' to provide an email address in order to download a demo/example whatever, I usually just skip it and move on to something less intrusive. If I really think this product has some potential to me, then I give them a fake email address, or a throwaway address (from msn, yahoo, or my own server that never gets checked and disallows income mail).

                      I highly think I'm the only one who does this too.

                      Also, each will see it differently, but for me, if I don't have time to play with a demo, I don't have time to watch someone move their mouse around and show me how "easy" their product works. I can flip on the TV if I want a commercial. I prefer playing with the product first hand. I can usually tell in 30 minutes or less if the product is intuitive to use, or if not, if the help file is done well enough that I can work my way through it. A movie or static web site isn't going to answer those questions for me.
                      Software makes Hardware Happen

                      Comment


                        #31
                        is that I doubt actual sales come anywhere close to compensating the developers adequately for their time invested.
                        ????

                        Without knowing how many unit sales were made you can't even guess.

                        Besides, "adequate" is a very subjective term and "compensation" is not always measured in cash receipts.

                        MCM
                        Michael Mattias
                        Tal Systems (retired)
                        Port Washington WI USA
                        [email protected]
                        http://www.talsystems.com

                        Comment


                          #32
                          Actually, it's very practical - and done all the time. Besides, you can always unsubscribe from the list.

                          If you're in business to sell something part of your job is to actively sell it. Putting up webpages without doing something to actively advertise them - especially if you have a tight niche - is basically a waste of time.

                          Kind of like the salesperson who puts themselves on the "do-not-call" list - why would they expect prospects to take their calls? Especially when they make those calls with the "I'm here to waste your time attitude"?

                          Joe - if you won't give me your email address when that is the "price" for my giving you my stuff then you're not my prospect. It doesn't matter how much my product to you would help you with your project.

                          Have you ever had someone ask for a proposal from you and then turn around and shop it? If you have, then you know why you want to get as much committment as possible as fast as possible.

                          JS
                          John,
                          --------------------------------
                          John Strasser
                          Phone: 480 - 273 - 8798

                          Comment


                            #33
                            I don't think cost of the product for the most part has anything to do with if someone will use your software. I manage the ScriptBasic open source project and it's been slow going building the user base, and it's FREE, runs on multiple platforms and really easy to use.

                            People stay with what they feel comfortable with, may it be a relationship with someone or the software you use. I still turn my XP PC on in the morning but use it less and less as I have more projects going under Linux then Windows these days.

                            I agree with the poll that you should stay with the price point you established when you went to market. Some people like Ford's others like GM products and others just walk.

                            John

                            Comment


                              #34
                              Originally posted by Chris Boss View Post
                              The end user only has a vague idea of his actual need. Often it is generalized. ie. I need an easy to use Visual Tool which will make me more productive!. The problem is that if the end user had a complete picture of his needs, he would immediately know which product would satisfy those needs.
                              I completely disagree with this statement. I know *exactly* what I'm looking for. What I don't know is if the product in question meets my expectations.

                              A very important point for me is the designer's editor. If this doesn't work to me liking, it may offer the best and most complete feature set around, but I will never use it.

                              I'm very picky when it comes to how I'd like my code to be formated. A designer not capable of doing it the way I like, gives me a hard time finding it useful.

                              For example, since almost five years I'm trying to make myself familiar with VS.NET, but I just can't make the code editor behave according to my wishes. VB1-6, OTOH, were/are a pleasure to work with.

                              Comment


                                #35
                                Making potential customers aware of your product and its benefits=Marketing.

                                Convincing potential customers to puchase AFTER they have agreed to look at your product=Sales.

                                Value to potential customers of your development efforts=%NULL
                                Michael Mattias
                                Tal Systems (retired)
                                Port Washington WI USA
                                [email protected]
                                http://www.talsystems.com

                                Comment


                                  #36
                                  Joe - if you won't give me your email address when that is the "price" for my giving you my stuff then you're not my prospect. It doesn't matter how much my product to you would help you with your project.
                                  You certainly have every right to "charge" for the sales pitch, but I'm not going to loose money if I don't buy from YOU. Remember who has the cash at this point....

                                  Let just assume you have a 3rd party product for sale and I am looking at your site. If I see a download for it, but it requires an email address, I just might pass. Now, every 3rd party developer here (or at least 99% of them) have me on their customer list. I own A LOT of PB related products. Am I a potential customer or not? I think my previous purchasing history would say yes. However, you are willing to gamble a sale on whether I'll supply an email address so you can hound me (potentially) for the next several weeks. To me, thats a bit short sighted. Also, what prevents me from giving you the email address [email protected]? Unless you can verify that the address I supply will actually reach me, why hold to a policy that has the potential to LOOSE customers before they ever see your product?

                                  Now, if its optional, that's a different story.
                                  Have you ever had someone ask for a proposal from you and then turn around and shop it? If you have, then you know why you want to get as much committment as possible as fast as possible.
                                  Different story. The customer contacts me personally. We discuss their requirements face-to-face (or at least over the phone voice-to-voice), I have the opportunity to create a relationship before anything else is done, and I can make a judgment on whether this is a good prospect or just someone shopping around. If I opt to put time into making a proposal, I get a signature legally binding them to keep the information confidential.

                                  You can't tell me that you equate a simple downloadable demo with a professionally done, usually custom, proposal.
                                  Software makes Hardware Happen

                                  Comment


                                    #37
                                    Of course some potential customers do know exactly what they want in a Visual tool. My point was that often it is not so.

                                    I think Edwin may understand where I am coming from on this, in that even when someone downloads a demo, they have so little knowledge of the product that they won't fully appreciate what it really can do, even if they play with it.

                                    Its kind of like buying a car. Most people look at the obvious things when purchasing, but likely there are many hidden values to an automobile that will not be appreciated until after they use it for a good bit of time. It is the salemans job to point these out. You could be torned between two different cars you like which seem similiar in design, but if the salemans points out some hidden factors that make one more appealing that the other (ie. reliability, inexpensive parts replacement, quality) you may make a choice based on his sales info.

                                    The average PB'er who is shopping for a Visual Designer may only see the obvious. It is what is not so obvious though. that may really make the difference in the long run. Thats where the real value may be.

                                    To illustrate:

                                    I purchased a used car over ten years ago. It was a 1990 Geo Prism.
                                    Geos at the time were not well known to me as far as quality, etc.
                                    The car had 149,000 miles on it which for all practical purposes may have seemed a bad choice.

                                    There were hidden values of which I learned of later.

                                    The one biggest value, was that I found out that this particular GEO model was actually the same thing as a Toyota Corrola under the hood (made in the same factory I hear). Now I know Toyota and they have a reputation for quality.

                                    I still have this car and it has over 320,000 miles on it and it is still running. It burns a little oil at this point, but how many people are still driving cars with over 300,000 miles on them?

                                    To make things even sweeter, when I bought the car gas prices were very reasonable. Who would have ever thought gas would get over $3.00 a gallon (in the US) ? My car gets an amazing 40 miles per gallon and you would be hard pressed to find a car that gets that good gas mileage today in the US.

                                    My point is that the real value of a product may not be appreciated until long after one uses it for a good amount of time. Visual Designers are no different. This is why the developer needs to do a good job of making that value known, even if the buyer doesn't fully appreciate it at the time.

                                    This is one reason customer feedback from long time users is very valuable. I periodically do surveys of long time customers ( as well as new) and the feedback is invaluable. The longer they have used a product, the more valuable is their feedback. They really know the value of a product because they have had time to really get the most out of it.

                                    Thats one of the reasons I posted earlier, that it would be nice to hear from some long time PwrDev users. They have a better sense of the real value of PwrDev. To ask a potential customer, "do you think I should charge less" is a loaded question. Of course they will say yes. Now ask a long time user, if the product was worth the price they paid for it, then that is a more valuable answer. The developer needs to examine the real value his long time customers have found in the product and find a way to to explain it to potential customers in terms they will appreciate.
                                    Last edited by Chris Boss; 3 Mar 2008, 11:02 AM.
                                    Chris Boss
                                    Computer Workshop
                                    Developer of "EZGUI"
                                    http://cwsof.com
                                    http://twitter.com/EZGUIProGuy

                                    Comment


                                      #38
                                      Chris,

                                      I appreciate your opinion, but using your own analogy, would you buy without test driving it first?

                                      Sure, you assume it has a steering wheel, you assume it tracks ok, you assume a lot of things, but I've been in quite a few automobiles in my life to know there is a different "fit" to each. I want to make sure the 'standard', not-hidden values are there and comfortable to me. If they are not, none of the other "hidden" values will mean anything to me. Basics first, then look at the rest.

                                      I still have this car and it has over 320,000 miles on it and it is still running. It burns a little oil at this point, but how many people are still driving cars with over 300,000 miles on them?
                                      Just about anyone who owns a Honda We traded my wifes Accord in a few years back with 420,000 + miles on it. The dealer put it through a detailing process, fixed a few cosmetic things that didn't bother me, replaced the muffler, then resold it a few weeks later for $1,500.00. I've even seen it around town since then.

                                      Of course for me, I can't drive a tin-can. I need something with room that sits up over all the kooks driving ahead of me. I want to see when the idiot in the right lane suddenly pulls in front of everyone and turns left. My jeep has 140,000. on it and never had so much more an a normal tune-up. I suspect it will go another 100,000 without a problem. Of course I change the oil ever 2,000 miles and do all the things necessary to make sure its in top working order.

                                      Oh, btw, I test drove every car I've ever owned....and a lot more
                                      Last edited by Joe Byrne; 3 Mar 2008, 01:16 PM.
                                      Software makes Hardware Happen

                                      Comment


                                        #39
                                        Joe,

                                        If you are refering to the need to test drive EZGUI (demo) I do understand. I have currently chosen not to (to protect the include files) offer a downloadable demo, but this could change.

                                        The problem I have with a demo of EZGUI, is that many want a 100% working tool, with say a time limit on it. I won't make the include files available publicly, so that its out of the question.

                                        If users of a demo can't compile anything, they may not feel there is enough there to test. They surely can't test the command set if they can't compile anything.

                                        There are of course other types od demos I could make, for example compiled apps which demonstrate the feature set.
                                        Chris Boss
                                        Computer Workshop
                                        Developer of "EZGUI"
                                        http://cwsof.com
                                        http://twitter.com/EZGUIProGuy

                                        Comment


                                          #40
                                          Demo or no demo?

                                          Download the demo or request a demo?

                                          Need email address or don't?

                                          Price $100 or $150?


                                          If you want to be an entepreneur, well, you can't be an entrepreneur without taking some risks. I think that's part of the definition.

                                          You want a regular paycheck, go work for somebody else.
                                          Michael Mattias
                                          Tal Systems (retired)
                                          Port Washington WI USA
                                          [email protected]
                                          http://www.talsystems.com

                                          Comment

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