PwrDev to expensive?

[Mike Stefanik]

From the marketing end of things, there is a truism: if you find yourself arguing with a customer (or potential customer), even when you win, you lose.

[Edwin Knoppert]

Well, PowerBASIC inc may shut this topic down.

Thanks all for your comments.

Edwin,

[Doug Hitchens]

Thanks alot Joe and Mike.

I have PBforms and have gotten far enough into writing code to see that I'm going to hit a wall with it. My application currently, is the type that has the possibility to keep growing and growing (like an accounting ap). So while I've been able to accomplish what I've set out to do, I see the value in some of the things the Pwrdev may provide me. I have downloaded Firefly, and honestly, while it seems to interface more like VB .net, it is VERY Similar to PBForms. (In fact, I wondered if PB modeled PBForms after it or vica versa) EZGui, is kinda in the same thing IMO, as far as I can tell, but the pro version intrigues me.

I may be relatively new at the Win API, but I am very familar with programming. So I'm not expecting to pick up something that there will be no learning curve. But here is the crux, neither do I want to spend a lot of time learning and programming with a tool, that will far short for me in the long term. So I'm looking hard at my tools, cause I want to (try at least) be using and learning now, what I will still be using in the future, when I get more ambitious with my applications.

Mr Knoppert. The refund comment was a JOKE. Hence the , at the end of the line. Lighten up.

I think when you try to sell software, what has to be apparrent from all the discussions in this thread, is that everyone's situation is different to an extent, and if you're REALLY serious about selling some software, you have to get it in the customers hands. If you lower the price to $75, my situation will still not change...

To be honest, it took me along time and research to decide on PB, since they offer no trial. If price had been really the issue I would have just purchased Purebasic for $49 I think. But for the difference in $49 to $199, I was more concerned with other things...

Maybe a better poll question would be this:

"What price would you be willing to pay for software without being able to try it first?"

[Doug Hitchens]

quick follow up,

A lot of the time, when an answer to a question baffles you, you're asking the wrong question.

[Edwin Knoppert]

>Mr Knoppert. The refund comment was a JOKE. Hence the , at the end of the line. Lighten up.

Then i am very sorry for this misunderstanding.

Let me make a special deal for you.
Purchase within 7 days and when you don't want it after all, i'll refund it to you.
You may then legally use the license but without updates and support.

How about that?

[Paul Squires]

I have downloaded Firefly, and honestly, while it seems to interface more like VB .net, it is VERY Similar to PBForms.

? Not sure what you mean by that. That is first time in four years that anyone has said that FireFly is VERY similar to PBForms. Care to elaborate a little bit so I can understand what you mean?

[Doug Hitchens]

Well, Paul, not to put down your fine software, which it is. Had I been a little more informed on the GUI tools available, maybe I would have looked at it closer. Instead, I spent alot of time researching compilers, and PBforms was what I purchased with it. I then became more informed on available products, and looked at firefly.

Just to be honest, I didn't see where having PBforms, that Firefly was all that different from a feature set. I certainly could be wrong about that!

If I had not already had PBforms, perhaps Firefly would have been my first choice.

Guys, I really just started out trying to help (gee, I don't know now) with a different perspective. You may not be able (remember) to appreciate how daunting a task it is to try to figure what tools to settle on at the beginning...it's kinda a chicken and egg problem. Start out learning a method...get comfortable, then find a better way or more advanced set...and restart the learning and updating code?

And as Joe Byrne pointed out, I'm sure I will get more comfortable with SDK as time goes along, since you are forced to understand the WinAPI to some extent even with using a GUI designer...

Edwin, more than generous offer, which I will strongly consider, however it was never my intent to leverage any discussion here toward that end. I would not feel comfortable, using your software, under license, after a return of funds (if it came to that, which I doubt)...after what has been said.

[Doug Hitchens]

One thing Paul, as I look at Firefly some more, the controls EGrid, and SIgrid....Demo? Not licensed? Not available in full version? Must buy separately as custom control?

[Mike Stefanik]

Just to be honest, I didn't see where having PBforms, that Firefly was all that different from a feature set. I certainly could be wrong about that!

The primary difference is that PowerBasic (and PBForms) has a code-centric view of the application. With PBForms, you're effectively working with a dialog editor that generates boilerplate code; you then copy that code to the clipboard or save it to a file, open it in the PB editor and continue with the standard edit/compile/run sequence. If you need to modify the form, then you're back to PBForms, making the change to the dialog, then copying that back to the editor and so on. It's the way that SDK style applications have been written in Windows for a long time.

Visual Basic, and tools like Firefly that are similar, take a form-centric view of the application, working within the context of that form. So when you add a button to a form, you double-click it, and you're in the event handler for that button. You add your code for that event, compile and run.

There's more than just a semantic difference, it's fundamentally different approach to how applications are built, conceptually. With SDK-style programming, you start with the program's entry point (PBMain), and add dialogs, controls, menus and so on. In a sense, you are working from the inside, building out your interface. With a tool like Firefly, you start with the form (dialog) and work from the outside going in, adding code to the event handlers that it creates for you.

Another advantage, particularly to new PB developers, is the support Firefly offers for ActiveX controls. You can use ActiveX with the standard product, but it requires a fairly good understanding of COM, how to create interface definitions, hook up event sinks and so on. Firefly takes care of that for you, and makes it possible to drop ActiveX controls on a form, just as you do in Visual Basic. That's not something that PBForms is capable of.

EDIT: Oh, and AFIK, the grid controls are ones created by third parties and Paul has included them to show how they can be used by Firefly.

I think that the primary benefit of Firefly isn't just about reducing learning curve, it's specifically for developers who are used to that Visual Basic approach of building applications. For someone who has always worked with VB, SDK style programming can seem very odd ... almost backwards. However, for someone who has no real experience with Windows programming at all of any stripe, then you've got some conceptual hurdles to overcome regardless of which methodology you use. A form-centric approach tends to be a black box ... you don't see the the message handlers, IDs, etc. and what's going on "under the covers" isn't immediately obvious. You know that this event handler is called when a button is clicked, but how does that handler get called, and by what? There are some people who just aren't comfortable coding into that black box, they want to see the wheels turning, and that's what SDK style programming offers them.

[Paul Squires]

Thanks Mike, I couldn't have said it any better myself.

... and yes, EGrid32, SIGrid are 3rd party controls that I distribute with FireFly out of respect for those developers to show FireFly customers that their products can be integrated directly into FireFly. To use the full version of those controls you would need to purchase those licenses separately from those vendors. (To be honest, I don't know if SIGrid is being actively developed anymore... EGrid32 certainly is).

Doug, going from DOS to Windows can be a daunting task. Back in the day, I went from DOS programming (dBase, QuickBasic, PBDOS) to using Visual Basic (3?) if I remember correctly. I switched from VB6 to PowerBasic and I haven't looked back since. There is indeed a learning curve switching from the DOS modular, top-down thinking, to Windows event driven model, but once it sinks in it does make a lot of sense and can be a very rewarding experience. I wish you luck in your PowerBasic adventure. You will find that your questions will get answered here in these forums. I know of no other place where one can get so much help from so many PB programming gurus.

Hang in there buddy. Don't let the awkwardness of this thread discourage you.

[Michael Mattias]

>application currently, is the type that has the possibility to keep growing and growing ..

Aren't they all?

[Doug Hitchens]

Yeah, Mike that was pretty helpful. I've been working on a project, and really didn't dig any deeper into Firefly than the superficial....I'm gonna look some more at it.

I'm not really having a problem with the concept of windows API. I guess it depends on what type apps and the style of coding one does. QB was a huge step forward in regard to functions / subs and using a more modular approach as I'm sure other similar basic compilers were back in that period.

In regards to Windows API, if you've been used to interfacing with other applications or hardware, thats not too different it seems to me either. That is, if you are comfortable with processing hardware int's and mach lang calls to processes, its Very similar, except the callbacks are in YOUR program. In short, your piggy backed to the OS software, you call it's functions to tell it what do, it calls you back to tell you whats going on. My time is tied up looking up all the definitions and equates for call backs and such and just the general knowledge and definitions....

I guess it depends on the level and type of DOS programming you did, as to how much of a "concept" leap it is.

Anyway, thanks, you explained that pretty well for me, I'll look more at the coding end than I have.