PwrDev to expensive?

[Doug Hitchens]

Yeah, Mike that was pretty helpful. I've been working on a project, and really didn't dig any deeper into Firefly than the superficial....I'm gonna look some more at it.

I'm not really having a problem with the concept of windows API. I guess it depends on what type apps and the style of coding one does. QB was a huge step forward in regard to functions / subs and using a more modular approach as I'm sure other similar basic compilers were back in that period.

In regards to Windows API, if you've been used to interfacing with other applications or hardware, thats not too different it seems to me either. That is, if you are comfortable with processing hardware int's and mach lang calls to processes, its Very similar, except the callbacks are in YOUR program. In short, your piggy backed to the OS software, you call it's functions to tell it what do, it calls you back to tell you whats going on. My time is tied up looking up all the definitions and equates for call backs and such and just the general knowledge and definitions....

I guess it depends on the level and type of DOS programming you did, as to how much of a "concept" leap it is.

Anyway, thanks, you explained that pretty well for me, I'll look more at the coding end than I have.

[Michael Mattias]

>application currently, is the type that has the possibility to keep growing and growing ..

Aren't they all?

[Paul Squires]

Thanks Mike, I couldn't have said it any better myself.

... and yes, EGrid32, SIGrid are 3rd party controls that I distribute with FireFly out of respect for those developers to show FireFly customers that their products can be integrated directly into FireFly. To use the full version of those controls you would need to purchase those licenses separately from those vendors. (To be honest, I don't know if SIGrid is being actively developed anymore... EGrid32 certainly is).

Doug, going from DOS to Windows can be a daunting task. Back in the day, I went from DOS programming (dBase, QuickBasic, PBDOS) to using Visual Basic (3?) if I remember correctly. I switched from VB6 to PowerBasic and I haven't looked back since. There is indeed a learning curve switching from the DOS modular, top-down thinking, to Windows event driven model, but once it sinks in it does make a lot of sense and can be a very rewarding experience. I wish you luck in your PowerBasic adventure. You will find that your questions will get answered here in these forums. I know of no other place where one can get so much help from so many PB programming gurus.

Hang in there buddy. Don't let the awkwardness of this thread discourage you.

[Mike Stefanik]

Just to be honest, I didn't see where having PBforms, that Firefly was all that different from a feature set. I certainly could be wrong about that!

The primary difference is that PowerBasic (and PBForms) has a code-centric view of the application. With PBForms, you're effectively working with a dialog editor that generates boilerplate code; you then copy that code to the clipboard or save it to a file, open it in the PB editor and continue with the standard edit/compile/run sequence. If you need to modify the form, then you're back to PBForms, making the change to the dialog, then copying that back to the editor and so on. It's the way that SDK style applications have been written in Windows for a long time.

Visual Basic, and tools like Firefly that are similar, take a form-centric view of the application, working within the context of that form. So when you add a button to a form, you double-click it, and you're in the event handler for that button. You add your code for that event, compile and run.

There's more than just a semantic difference, it's fundamentally different approach to how applications are built, conceptually. With SDK-style programming, you start with the program's entry point (PBMain), and add dialogs, controls, menus and so on. In a sense, you are working from the inside, building out your interface. With a tool like Firefly, you start with the form (dialog) and work from the outside going in, adding code to the event handlers that it creates for you.

Another advantage, particularly to new PB developers, is the support Firefly offers for ActiveX controls. You can use ActiveX with the standard product, but it requires a fairly good understanding of COM, how to create interface definitions, hook up event sinks and so on. Firefly takes care of that for you, and makes it possible to drop ActiveX controls on a form, just as you do in Visual Basic. That's not something that PBForms is capable of.

EDIT: Oh, and AFIK, the grid controls are ones created by third parties and Paul has included them to show how they can be used by Firefly.

I think that the primary benefit of Firefly isn't just about reducing learning curve, it's specifically for developers who are used to that Visual Basic approach of building applications. For someone who has always worked with VB, SDK style programming can seem very odd ... almost backwards. However, for someone who has no real experience with Windows programming at all of any stripe, then you've got some conceptual hurdles to overcome regardless of which methodology you use. A form-centric approach tends to be a black box ... you don't see the the message handlers, IDs, etc. and what's going on "under the covers" isn't immediately obvious. You know that this event handler is called when a button is clicked, but how does that handler get called, and by what? There are some people who just aren't comfortable coding into that black box, they want to see the wheels turning, and that's what SDK style programming offers them.

[Doug Hitchens]

One thing Paul, as I look at Firefly some more, the controls EGrid, and SIgrid....Demo? Not licensed? Not available in full version? Must buy separately as custom control?

[Doug Hitchens]

Well, Paul, not to put down your fine software, which it is. Had I been a little more informed on the GUI tools available, maybe I would have looked at it closer. Instead, I spent alot of time researching compilers, and PBforms was what I purchased with it. I then became more informed on available products, and looked at firefly.

Just to be honest, I didn't see where having PBforms, that Firefly was all that different from a feature set. I certainly could be wrong about that!

If I had not already had PBforms, perhaps Firefly would have been my first choice.

Guys, I really just started out trying to help (gee, I don't know now) with a different perspective. You may not be able (remember) to appreciate how daunting a task it is to try to figure what tools to settle on at the beginning...it's kinda a chicken and egg problem. Start out learning a method...get comfortable, then find a better way or more advanced set...and restart the learning and updating code?

And as Joe Byrne pointed out, I'm sure I will get more comfortable with SDK as time goes along, since you are forced to understand the WinAPI to some extent even with using a GUI designer...

Edwin, more than generous offer, which I will strongly consider, however it was never my intent to leverage any discussion here toward that end. I would not feel comfortable, using your software, under license, after a return of funds (if it came to that, which I doubt)...after what has been said.

[Paul Squires]

I have downloaded Firefly, and honestly, while it seems to interface more like VB .net, it is VERY Similar to PBForms.

? Not sure what you mean by that. That is first time in four years that anyone has said that FireFly is VERY similar to PBForms. Care to elaborate a little bit so I can understand what you mean?

[Edwin Knoppert]

>Mr Knoppert. The refund comment was a JOKE. Hence the , at the end of the line. Lighten up.

Then i am very sorry for this misunderstanding.

Let me make a special deal for you.
Purchase within 7 days and when you don't want it after all, i'll refund it to you.
You may then legally use the license but without updates and support.

How about that?

[Doug Hitchens]

quick follow up,

A lot of the time, when an answer to a question baffles you, you're asking the wrong question.

[Doug Hitchens]

Thanks alot Joe and Mike.

I have PBforms and have gotten far enough into writing code to see that I'm going to hit a wall with it. My application currently, is the type that has the possibility to keep growing and growing (like an accounting ap). So while I've been able to accomplish what I've set out to do, I see the value in some of the things the Pwrdev may provide me. I have downloaded Firefly, and honestly, while it seems to interface more like VB .net, it is VERY Similar to PBForms. (In fact, I wondered if PB modeled PBForms after it or vica versa) EZGui, is kinda in the same thing IMO, as far as I can tell, but the pro version intrigues me.

I may be relatively new at the Win API, but I am very familar with programming. So I'm not expecting to pick up something that there will be no learning curve. But here is the crux, neither do I want to spend a lot of time learning and programming with a tool, that will far short for me in the long term. So I'm looking hard at my tools, cause I want to (try at least) be using and learning now, what I will still be using in the future, when I get more ambitious with my applications.

Mr Knoppert. The refund comment was a JOKE. Hence the , at the end of the line. Lighten up.

I think when you try to sell software, what has to be apparrent from all the discussions in this thread, is that everyone's situation is different to an extent, and if you're REALLY serious about selling some software, you have to get it in the customers hands. If you lower the price to $75, my situation will still not change...

To be honest, it took me along time and research to decide on PB, since they offer no trial. If price had been really the issue I would have just purchased Purebasic for $49 I think. But for the difference in $49 to $199, I was more concerned with other things...

Maybe a better poll question would be this:

"What price would you be willing to pay for software without being able to try it first?"

[Edwin Knoppert]

Well, PowerBASIC inc may shut this topic down.

Thanks all for your comments.

Edwin,

[Mike Stefanik]

From the marketing end of things, there is a truism: if you find yourself arguing with a customer (or potential customer), even when you win, you lose.

[Edwin Knoppert]

Doug,

The actual reason for me to reply that way was you wanted to discuss my refund policy.
From my perspective that's the same as having a demo and 'bring it back' after a few days.
I have more to do then doing refunds.
You could have thought about that.

So i took your line and now i am arrogant
O well, i can be, but i don't think i am an arrogant person in public(online).
Just a strong personality which can press the wrong buttons for some.

As i mentioned before, i am not a marketing man, otherwise the product would be sold differently, smoothened 100% towards novice as well.
I really don't care if people buy another tool for such reasons.
I just started this poll that my experiance was that $99 sold better then $150
The poll says otherwise though, not sure this poll is reliable.

There are very valid tips brought to my attention in this topic, though i am currently not able to change things to try it all out.

I also think it's not the price but the product, fair enough.
PwrDev is really good but not for everyone i guess.
That may be part of the discussion but isn't *the* discussion.
People not having this tool can not participate into that discussion, they don't know it.

[John Spikowski]

IMO, its a real shame that Chris won't let you try EZGUI without paying first, however he does stand behind his product with a money back guarantee.

This topic ended up being a long thread with Chris defending his position that no free rides is his policy. I would venture to say that he could 4X his sales if he had a 30 day trial version. A sales nag screen or startup message is all that is needed to remind the reviewer they haven't made a commitment yet. Chris could also create a remark header that the code generated is for evaluation purposes and not to be used in a commercial environment.

John

[Mike Stefanik]

I thought I'd throw in my two cents, and a somewhat different perspective while agreeing with what Joe has written. Unlike most of the folks here, I don't use PowerBASIC to write applications. I'm primarily a C/C++/C# developer who works on Internet components and libraries for Windows. However, we actively support PB with our products, and so I work with the language from that end -- making sure there aren't problems using our libraries with the language, writing example programs and being well-versed enough in PB to be able to intelligently answer questions. I also personally like the language a lot, and there's a great community of folks here that I enjoy "talking shop" with.

On occasion we'll get evaluators of our products who, in the course of discussing which edition of SocketTools is best for them or some technical question, will comment that they want to move away from VB6, but don't want to move to a .NET language (and that's happening more, as VB6 is approaching its end-of-life in April). When that happens, I like to steer them in the direction of PowerBASIC, but I know that there's going to be that initial learning curve because SDK-style programming is fundamentally different than how VB works.

As a result, I decided that it would be a good idea to investigate Firefly, since there's been a lot of comments that it made programming in PB more VB-like. Paul makes a 30-day evaluation version available, and I took the opportunity to do some testing and get a feel for how it works. Basically, I wanted to be comfortable in my own mind that I could recommend his product to our customers who are looking to making the transition from VB to PB. The fact that Paul offered the evaluation, and it turns out that it works very well and can significantly ease the transition for VB programmers, gave me that comfort level. I bought a license from him, not because I'll actually be using it to write applications per se, but because I want to support his product with ours. If he hadn't offered the evaluation, most likely I wouldn't have persued it further.

This was a long-winded way of saying that offering evaluations is one of the best ways to overcome objections (I don't know if it'll work; I don't know if it's easy to use; I don't know if it can meet my needs, etc.), and that's how you make sales. Without an evaluation, it would be like buying a car without being able to take a test-drive, or purchasing a house without actually walking through it. In any case, as a result, we recommend both PowerBASIC along with Firefly to our customers who are "VB refugees", comfortable with that recommendation and confident that we'll be able to support them just as well as we did in the past with Visual Basic.

[Joe Byrne]

I ramble on about this because it seems to me YOU guys on here, come from a perspective different from mine. You've probably all GROWN up with GUI systems....and I'm here to tell you, there's a bunch of US out here lurking....interested, but kinda behind...late to the GUI party wanting to come anyway.

Doug,

Your story is nearly identical to mine, except that I found PB back in the early 90s (DOS). About 7 years ago, I was looking for an application to fill a need for my employer. After coming up empty, I decided to take the plunge into Windows programming (having done only DOS based before). After a few weeks, I sorta "got it", but it was clear I would need to spend quite a bit of time to actually produce the application I saw in my mind.

That is when Chris Boss started to tell me about his EZGUI tool. I decided it sounded like the tool for me so I purchased it. In less than a month, I not only wrote the program I wanted, but added features I only hoped might get there over time! EZGUI allowed me to code the way I "thought", like the old DOS days. That program lead to another, and then another, and so on. Since then, I have learned a lot about Windows programming with both DDT and SDK styles. EZGUI allowed me to be productive while learning.... that was important to me because I didn't have the time to sit down and study.

Having built my tool chest (I've got just about every 3rd party product out there), I'd classify the designers this way:

(1) EZGUI: Best choice for new Windows programmers or those that "think" more serially. Also (IMO) easier and more powerful that the DDT set while allowing you to mix SDK style code for greater flexibility. Version 4 is a huge update and while the designer doesn't look as "polished" as the others, the underlying code generation is by far the best.

(2) Firefly: Best choice for those coming from Visual Basic (and/or other 'Visual.... MS languages". Very polished, rock solid, and very well supported. Many built in functions that make creating applications easier than PowerForms (IMO of course).

(3) All the others: Best choice for those with PB & Windows experience, probably with Visual Basic backgrounds, and/or with specific needs for the specialties of each designer. (Such as the ability to use .NET stuff with VD, etc).

There isn't a looser in the group, trust me. But unless you're in a position to purchase all of them, I think you're best best is to look at #1 and #2 to start with. Again, not to take away anything from VD, Phoenix, etc, but if PB and/or Windows is new to you, these are likely a bit overwhelming at first.

IMO, its a real shame that Chris won't let you try EZGUI without paying first, however he does stand behind his product with a money back guarantee. Both Chris and Paul (Firefly) do an amazing and professional job of support. Both of these guys have given me countless hours of time getting things to work, and some of those times was caused by my lack of Windows understanding and had nothing to do with their products at all....nonetheless, they wanted to make sure I was able to do what I needed to get done.

Lest anyone feels slighted by my comments, that is not my intent. I am just voicing a personal opinion based on my previous research with PB add-on products.

[Doug Hitchens]

Right John,

I went A LONG round-about way to try to explain to Mr. Knoppert that His target is ME! Me and people who like me are starting out with PB for WHATEVER REASON. We don't have all the tools we need yet. WE are the UNTAPPED MARKET.......where the most sales are, unless you want to try to PRY people away from PBForms, EZGUI, Firefly whatever...you guys can keep fighting over the same people....oh, and keep telling the newcomers....go away, and come back when you can hack it....

Diplomacy aside, if you want more sales, get the software in my hands so I can try it. If it is too advanced in my opinion (I guess his way of saying I'll never grasp how to use it) I won't buy it...but on the other hand if I can utilize a portion of it, and see the potential for me grow into it and utilize it more and more, Hell yeah $150 no prob. LET YOUR CUSTOMER MAKE THAT DETERMINATION, YOU ARROGANT BOOB.

What have you got to LOSE? Your not selling it like you think you should, cause you already got the low hanging fruit.

(short) Lesson over....<sigh>

P.S. One Big thing, someone says they are interested in your product, I'd advise using a little more tact, with a bit of respect.

[John Spikowski]

So true !

Developers for the most part don't make good sales people or write good documentation. Thankfully, wiki's have been a big help in this regard.

My guess is that there is 5-10 sales a month that the GUI designers have to fight over.

John

[Doug Hitchens]

I'll let the last reply stand on it's own merits, and allow you to keep wondering why sales are not up....

[Edwin Knoppert]

>I'm sorry for the long reply, instead of telling you how to market your product, I was (apparently mistakenly) trying to give you some insight from a new customer point of view.

Nonsense, there a few other replies with heavy length, no problem except at that moment i had no time to read and reply properly.
Of course i am interested in a customers view.
But unf. at this time there is a 'conflict' between the poll and actual sellings.

>I'm sorry that you did not appreciate my sense of humor, but am grateful that you helped me make my mind up.
I can't tell, i haven't read it yet (as said before)

I stressed 'dumb' because PwrDev is not a Visual Basic, i explicitly state the level of knowledge on the website.

I'll read your reply tomorrow.
Thanks.