Handling User Feedback

[Rodney Hicks]

The time is approaching when we'll be dotting i's and crossing t's I believe. Lots of last minute things that we have to do prior to release of VB2PB VERSION 1, so I have been thinking. Again.

What do we do after we release the converter?

How do we handle questions?
How do we handle reports of errors?
How do we handle new feature requests?
How do we direct these requests?
Where do we direct these requests?
Who is going to be responsible for these items?
Ultimately I suppose we may have a FAQ, what to do with it?
How do we keep track of the number of incidents of issue X?
How do we keep track of the number of new feature X?
How do all of us access the feedback?

In the interest of PR, do we put a muzzle on our MINISTER of OBNOXIA?
Where'd that come from?

We need a sound method for handling what may be a flood, may be a trickle.
While I'm sure there will be posts in the open fora, we do need some dedicated system as well, call it an official channel if you will.
Please consider these points, others I may not have mentioned, and post your response(s).

This feedback system should be in place before release so we aren't scrambling to catch up later.

[John R. Heathcote]

Rod,

This feedback system should be in place before release so we aren't scrambling to catch up later.

Very good point.

Do you think a VB CONVERTER FEEDBACK Discussion area could be set up in the PB forums, or would this be too much to ask? I know Mr. Zale has shown his support for our efforts by having a VB CONVERTER Discussion area at his expense, and for that I would like to say Thank you Bob, it is much appreciated.

...do we put a muzzle on our MINISTER of OBNOXIA?

I love it!!!!

Almost spilled my Coke on my keyboard when I read this from laughing so hard.

[Rodney Hicks]

Attention MINISTER OF OBNOXIA

I am glad you liked that, seems you were without a title for this forum. Now you have one.

Do you think a VB CONVERTER FEEDBACK Discussion area could be set up in the PB forums, or would this be too much to ask?

Well, if we're going to ask, I think we should iron out what we perceive as our needs first. There's is no point if we think that the existing forums and PM system is adequate, which I don't, but will go along with majority here. Bob Zale and company have been ideal overlords(?) but I don't want to ask Stan to bother them if it's unnecessary.

Since you were a VBer, put on your VB user cap and imagine how it would be best to communicate with us with regards to any issue.

[John R. Heathcote]

Rod,

I am glad you liked that, seems you were without a title for this forum. Now you have one.

I feel humbled by this title, I shall endeavor to do my best to live up to the honor you have bestowed on me.

Well, if we're going to ask, I think we should iron out what we perceive as our needs first.

Absolutely!!!

There's is no point if we think that the existing forums and PM system is adequate, which I don't, but will go along with majority here. Bob Zale and company have been ideal overlords(?) but I don't want to ask Stan to bother them if it's unnecessary.

Again, I agree 100%. Since this whole open source code thing is new to me I'm definitely coming into this affair as a newbie. It sounds to me like you and Stan have far more experience with open source than I do, so I defer to your expertise on the matter. I was just thinking out loud which I guess fits the MINISTER of OBNOXIA to a "T".

Since you were a VBer, put on your VB user cap and imagine how it would be best to communicate with us with regards to any issue.

Well, off the top of my (obnoxious?) head, maybe some of my initial reactions to the PB way of doing things would help to determine how to deal with this topic.

Thinking back on my initial reaction to PB having just come from the VB world, I was struck by the nagging question of how to deal with Windows messages, what were they, why use them, and how am I ever going to learn this stuff? Where do I go for these answers to my questions? I must confess Windows messages make me uneasy, even today. I would be totally lost without POFFS.

I am in total awe of folks like Jose Roca, Chris Boss, Paul Squires, Mr. Mattis, Fred Harris, Chris Holbrook, Wayne Diamond, and let's not forget Stan, yourself, and Mr. Zale just to name a few (and if I missed anybody I apologize) whose expertise on the issue of PB and Windows is nothing short of amazing, at least to me. And all of you good folks are willing to share your expertise with others in the PB community. I learn a lot from you guys on a daily basis, believe it or not. If these folks didn't exist, trust me on this, it would be necessary to invent them.

The second issue was how to emulate some VB functionality in PB, like responding to a button Click event, or a textbox "Lost_Focus" event. The question here was, I know what I want to do, now how do I do the same thing in PB?

The third issue was dealing with the apparent inconsistencies of Windows, and there are many to deal with. Think back to the very first time you tried to implement a ListView control and deal with all of the seemingly inconsistent Windows messages verses some of the other controls you used up to that point, and why did "they" bother to set it up that way in the first place?

The VB prototype model reduced GUI programming to a series of user actions (what you want to do) and then proceeded to give the user a relatively consistent set of tools to do that, but at a cost, namely not really knowing how Windows itself dealt with GUI issues. Since PB interfaces with Windows on a lower level than VB it tends to expose the Windows warts and inconsistencies to the nth degree which can be somewhat daunting to a new PB user to comprehend let alone successfully decipher into a usable application.

Now before anyone gets the wrong ideas, I love PB, it is a great tool which creates small fast executables, and it's been my observation that, depending on the application, the PB executable is faster than C or C++. I'm really looking forward to working with PB 9.0 and all of the new stuff, including objects. The main problem I have is with Windows itself, not PB, just wanted to clear this up.

With all of the inconsistencies Windows forces upon us programmers I'm amazed that it works as well as it does, or even at all.

How's that for an OBNOXIOUS tome?

[Rodney Hicks]

Once again, you raise an issue I had not considered and that I had not questioned in my first post of this thread.

How a is a user new to PB going to see the issues and how do we deal with those users?
Kid leather gloves, I guess.
I think one piece of advice that should be standard with any issue is to see if it can be solved by something in the forums first, especially if does not relate directly to the converter.

I was looking for answers just regarding the converter, but you're right in the sense that our converter may be the first real look at PB for a lot of individuals.

We may have to give users two part answers to some questions:
Question- Can pigs fly?
Simple answer- NO
Complicated answer- If you grip a young pig by the belly and manage to hold on long enough while it's squealing and kicking, and if you use an overhand throwing motion, pigs can be made to appear to fly.

Really we would have to explain the reason the pig can't fly in the complicated answer and then the work around.

The third issue was dealing with the apparent inconsistencies of Windows, and there are many to deal with. Think back to the very first time you tried to implement a ListView control and deal with all of the seemingly inconsistent Windows messages verses some of the other controls you used up to that point, and why did "they" bother to set it up that way in the first place?

This was where PBForms came to the rescue for me. Things fell into place much faster, probably because I had struggled earlier familiarizing myself with terms. And so it should for others as well, I would think.

As someone using our converter, IMO, I would like to connect with someone through/at PB, but since we are not PB, I'm not sure that PB should help us out in this regard unless they can do so with the confidence that we aren't going to cause any kind of problem.
This is not our decision, our decision may be to have Stan ask them about it.
No decision means the general fora would be used, which has the advantage of more experienced PBers being able to chip in on the help side, and the fora are extremely helpful.(too helpful sometimes)

[John R. Heathcote]

Rod,

I was looking for answers just regarding the converter, but you're right in the sense that our converter may be the first real look at PB for a lot of individuals.

A triple edged sword, if there is such a beast.

To understand conversion you need a tool to do the job. Simple to understand.

To understand what our converter does, you have to have some understanding of PB. A little more difficult, but not too much as it is all laid out in the PB documentation.

To understand what PB does you have to understand Windows. This is the real problem, IMHO, as I mentioned before.

This was where PBForms came to the rescue for me. Things fell into place much faster, probably because I had struggled earlier familiarizing myself with terms. And so it should for others as well, I would think.

Me too, although I gravitated towards other third party RAD tools (mostly for increased attention to details), PBForms showed me the correlation between PB code and Windows and why things were done the way they were. Not to mention DDT, even PB recognized the inconsistencies and inconvenience of Windows and the many problem it caused users.

As someone using our converter, IMO, I would like to connect with someone through/at PB, but since we are not PB, I'm not sure that PB should help us out in this regard unless they can do so with the confidence that we aren't going to cause any kind of problem.

I agree. I know I've posted some really dumb questions in the Source Code forums, but I never received an answer that was insulting or condescending to me personally. All of the folks I mentioned in my last post have generously provided fast and accurate answers to my questions. The fact my questions were answered so fast impressed me about the PB community and also made me appreciate the fact I made the correct decision to purchase PB.

We should take every opportunity to instruct our new users to make use of the PB forums, contact PB support, use POFFS, etc.

This is not our decision, our decision may be to have Stan ask them about it.

Agreed. I think there should only be one contact person to PowerBASIC in this regard, the MINISTER of CONVERSION, naw, doesn't quite work does it?

No decision means the general fora would be used, which has the advantage of more experienced PBers being able to chip in on the help side, and the fora are extremely helpful.(too helpful sometimes).

Yup, but I have always appreciated the depth of the responses nevertheless. One thing we do need to do is to show the new PBers how to use the forums and if they have a programming question how to post some code. Saves a lot of time on both sides.

[StanHelton]

...
Yup, but I have always appreciated the depth of the responses nevertheless. One thing we do need to do is to show the new PBers how to use the forums and if they have a programming question how to post some code. Saves a lot of time on both sides.

Just came up for a bit of air .... hard to breathe with nose buried in all these notes and code things.

Sounds like planning for the VB2PB docs. We could put a link to the PB Forums in the Help.

Back to the rockpile ..... later.

Stan

[Rodney Hicks]

I think that we've established that for general help on things PB they can use the forum, in fact even on things CONVERTER. New users of PB, present users of PB, and lurkers will all learn more faster as long as they don't get overwhelmed.

Nevertheless we need a system of reporting issues, new feature suggestions, change feature suggestions that makes it simpler for both the user and ourselves. This I don't believe should be in the fora.

I think there should only be one contact person to PowerBASIC in this regard, the MINISTER of CONVERSION, naw, doesn't quite work does it?

Try MINISTER of CONVERSATION, oh wait, maybe that's CONSERVATION.

Oh I know. PRIME MINISTER.

Sounds like planning for the VB2PB docs

Guess we'll need a thread for that soon enough. Even though the two will tie together pretty close.

Incidentally, before anyone gets any ideas that I need to be MINISTER of anything, I hereby appoint myself as MINISTER of FINANCE. Since this is a volunteer effort under the auspices of PB, there are no monies to care for. While you may think I have undertaken a no work, no pressure, and no tasks kind of job, I see it as my duty that if a dollar shows up, I have to spend it, as opposed to account for it, just like any other MINISTER of FINANCE.

[John R. Heathcote]

Rod,

Oh I know. PRIME MINISTER.

Well if we are going to have a PRIME MINISTER, we would definitely need a MINISTRY OF SILLY WALKS.

Sorry, just saw that Monty Python episode and it was too good to pass up.

[Rodney Hicks]

MINISTRY OF SILLY WALKS

I can do that too, but is it fair that I have a double workload?

[John R. Heathcote]

Rod,

I can do that too, but is it fair that I have a double workload?

Well I would love to explore this topic further, but I just received my PB 9.0 about 15 minutes ago and I plan to play a little.

That and buy a flea collar for my dog.

[Rodney Hicks]

but I just received my PB 9.0 about 15 minutes ago

I think there's a message in the way people are getting their PB9 before me, considering I'd ordered within the first hour of it going on sale.
I can understand that the most productive people should get it as soon as possible, but what I don't understand is how they know to leave me til later.

[John R. Heathcote]

Rod,

Hang in there, I'm sure you will get your copy of PB 9 when you least expect it. I wasn't expecting mine today, with it being Sunday and all and with Fay giving Mr. Zale problems, nope, I sure wasn't expecting delivery today.

...but what I don't understand is how they know to leave me til later.

Did you forget that proposed a conspiracy theory about this issue?

I can see right now that much of the existing SDK editor code could be consolidated to use many of the new PB 9 statements, but I think that is something to do in the future as I want to send what I have so far to Stan for his comments. I did have to make a couple of minor tweaks in the old code to get it to run under PB 9, but nothing major so far. It compiled and ran, I'm impressed.

[StanHelton]

...
Incidentally, before anyone gets any ideas that I need to be MINISTER of anything, I hereby appoint myself as MINISTER of FINANCE. Since this is a volunteer effort under the auspices of PB, there are no monies to care for. While you may think I have undertaken a no work, no pressure, and no tasks kind of job, I see it as my duty that if a dollar shows up, I have to spend it, as opposed to account for it, just like any other MINISTER of FINANCE.

You've got my vote!

[Rodney Hicks]

In all honesty, I was not expecting early delivery of my PB 9 because I ordered the printed manual along with it so took physical delivery. If I had read up on it more before ordering I would have elected for electronic delivery. It will arrive when it does.

But back on topic!!!!

Has anyone any thought about the feedback issue, mostly glitches and feature suggestions and how to handle them?

[Rodney Hicks]

Just because everybody but me has a new toy(s) to play with doesn't mean they should forget about this particular subject.

Having a game plan in place upon release may decrease our workload later, not to mention that it may help with user relations.
Those questions again:

What do we do after we release the converter?

How do we handle questions?
How do we handle reports of errors?
How do we handle new feature requests?
How do we direct these requests?
Where do we direct these requests?
Who is going to be responsible for these items?
Ultimately I suppose we may have a FAQ, what to do with it?
How do we keep track of the number of incidents of issue X?
How do we keep track of the number of new feature X?
How do all of us access the feedback?
How a is a user new to PB going to see the issues and how do we deal with those users?

I know I'm being a stick in the mud, but I don't have my toy yet so....

[John R. Heathcote]

Rod,

Wasn't ignoring this issue, spending more time than I anticipated making sure my editor app compiled and ran as it should under PB 9.0.

Having a game plan in place upon release may decrease our workload later, not to mention that it may help with user relations.

Absolutely.

As a user I have always been on the other side of this issue, submitting my wish lists, bug reports, etc. Having to respond to user issues is something new to me.

As I see it, if we can't get something set up on the PB web site we will have to set up our own site to handle these issues.

Who will develop, maintain, and respond to questions, will have to be done by volunteers.

If we have our own site we will need an area for bug reports, enhancements etc. We may be able to help streamline this issue by having serious errors cataloged by the converter and automatically submitted to the bug report area. There are many e-mail examples in the PB Source Code forums and POFFS that put together an e-mail framework, perhaps we could use one of those. Just a thought.

The real issue here is volunteers. Obviously you, Stan, Mike and myself are the obvious choices to start with.

I do like your idea of establishing a contact at PB to help us with PB technical stuff.

[Rodney Hicks]

First things first.

I do like your idea of establishing a contact at PB to help us with PB technical stuff.

This has already been done. Stan is our contact. Anything, questions, requests, etc. regarding the Converter Project are given to Stan to deal with PB. KISS principle once again. This was established at the outset and has worked marvelously.

As a user I have always been on the other side of this issue, submitting my wish lists, bug reports, etc. Having to respond to user issues is something new to me.

This is where your experiences as a user can make improvements on current feedback systems, if any. Seeing things from both sides of the fence is better than sitting on it.(I think I just made a quotable quote. Or paraphrased someone else's)
I think this is new to all of us. Hence all the questions.

The real issue here is volunteers.

I think whatever way we set it up, we all have to be able to access the feedback and respond. As such, any system will have to keep track of the responder and response, issue by issue, to avoid duplication and if needed, verification.

Wasn't ignoring this issue, spending more time than I anticipated making sure my editor app compiled and ran as it should under PB 9.0.

I know you weren't ignoring the issue. You were playing with your new toys!
My nose is so far out of joint that friends are asking if I've had plastic surgery.

[Wayne Suite]

Feedback/Issue Reporting

Is there a way to create an ONLINE STANDARD FORM which can be filled out with areas for related code and related comments/issues then submitted to a restricted area for the development group? This way the development group would be able to review/address the issues without everyone else seeing the issues and it turning into a free for all misdirected thread of negativity.

Whew! What a mouthful that was.

[John R. Heathcote]

Wayne,

Is there a way to create an ONLINE STANDARD FORM...

I sort of had this idea with an "Automated Bug Report" feature built into the converter.

ONLINE STANDARD FORM is good too. But we would need a web site for this to work.